Author Topic: Justification (Read 15724 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #60 on:** August 04, 2017, 05:29:22 PM »

No one is debating the idea that one can be justified by desiring baptism! What we are debating is, does justification impart membership in the church? Does it impart the baptismal mark on the soul? Does it make one a child of God? No, it does not. Only baptism does this. Justification is NOT baptism. It simply puts one in the state of grace, which is 1 of the 4 main effects of baptism. You do not get the other 3 effects! For an adult, they would be similar to an infant who died before Baptism. The adult who dies before baptism, but is justified by desiring it, would go to Limbo. This is current Church teaching.

In my opinion, due to all the modernist attacks on this issue, the Church needs to clarify a lot in this area, but still, based on what She has said to date, this is church teaching.

Merry · « **Reply #61 on:** August 04, 2017, 08:42:20 PM »

Yes - everyone is pretty much in their corner of choice on this topic. It is one of those cases where a theological point is evidently not clear enough, so the Church may have to define further on Baptism in the future, when sanity returns. This is how it works in Church history. This also explains why the 3 definitions about No Salvation are each more explicit. More clarity was needed.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #62 on:** August 04, 2017, 10:36:05 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 04, 2017, 05:29:22 PM

No one is debating the idea that one can be justified by desiring baptism! What we are debating is, does justification impart membership in the church? Does it impart the baptismal mark on the soul? Does it make one a child of God? No, it does not. Only baptism does this. Justification is NOT baptism. It simply puts one in the state of grace, which is 1 of the 4 main effects of baptism. You do not get the other 3 effects! For an adult, they would be similar to an infant who died before Baptism. The adult who dies before baptism, but is justified by desiring it, would go to Limbo. This is current Church teaching.

In my opinion, due to all the modernist attacks on this issue, the Church needs to clarify a lot in this area, but still, based on what She has said to date, this is church teaching.

Yes, Justification puts one in the state of grace, to that we can agree. The saving grace, perhaps Purgatory, as most of us can hope for. But aim high, for heaven, you just might make it without Purgatory.
Limbo ... now that would be a very interesting topic on a new thread.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #63 on:** August 05, 2017, 11:25:15 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on August 04, 2017, 08:39:30 AM

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”
(Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

This quote right here is THE SINGLE BIGGEST problem for BoDers. "Faithful" (Latin fideles) is a technical theological term for the baptized; even catechumens are excluded from being among "the faithful". Msgr. Fenton himself admits this.

There really is no need to say anything else, there is no appeal process with God's dogma.
Everyone that chooses to fight it, is trying to fit the square peg in the round hole by filing the edges to fit. It always reminds me of the scriptural quote:

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2Tim 4:3)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #64 on:** August 05, 2017, 12:02:05 PM »

Of course, the catechumens are excluded from being among "the faithful" they are not members of the Church yet.

In other words, they have not received the Sacrament of Baptism, which is why they are called catechumens.

However, if they are preparing to receive the SACRAMENT but death comes first, as Trent says, "OR desire" to be baptized.

Oh, you of little faith, believe that God will forgive through a Perfect Act of Contrition on a death bed, of sins one has freely committed, but He is bound and can not forgive an inherited sin, of which was not personal. Who are you to say such things?

For indeed "For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2Tim 4:3)

Yes, I would worry about EENS!

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #65 on:** August 05, 2017, 12:50:01 PM »

Myrna, you didn't respond this part of my post. Would you please explain how a justified but non-baptized person makes it to heaven?

Quote

What we are debating is, does justification impart membership in the church? Does it impart the baptismal mark on the soul? Does it make one a child of God? No, it does not. Only baptism does this. Justification is NOT baptism. Therefore, if one is justified by desire of baptism, but does not receive actual baptism, they cannot go to heaven, only Limbo.

Incredulous · « **Reply #66 on:** August 05, 2017, 01:15:45 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on August 03, 2017, 02:52:21 PM

So what you are saying is the person who gets baptised with water just because he wants to please his girlfriend or wife, and dies soon after goes to Heaven, but the other person who loves God and desires baptism but dies beforehand goes to Hell.

In other words, the Love of God means very little to you. Great logic!

MyrnaM,

Quick question:

With a stopwatch in hand, how long does it take to receive a water Baptism?

15 seconds ?

Our Lord is the Reader of all hearts, so an insincere Baptism will still help the handicapped new Catholic because, he took the action.

But, if you're a non-Catholic and love Our Lord, as you say.... you will take the action:

You will find some water and use 15 seconds to get yourself Baptized, by anyone, willing to Baptize as the Church does.

How incredibly simple Our Lord has made it

MyrnaM · « **Reply #67 on:** August 05, 2017, 02:04:30 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 05, 2017, 12:50:01 PM

Myrna, you didn't respond this part of my post. Would you please explain how a justified but non-baptized person makes it to heaven?

Sorry!
Cc. Trid.: sessio V. Decretum de peccato originali, Dz 1515.

If anyone denies that by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ which is conferred in Baptism the guilt of original sin is remitted... let him be anathema!¹

MyrnaM · « **Reply #68 on:** August 05, 2017, 02:38:29 PM »

Another link:

The Church teaches that justification consists of an actual obliteration of sin and an interior sanctification.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

Merry · « **Reply #69 on:** August 05, 2017, 02:43:11 PM »

Myrna just a quick question - are you getting all this on your own, or is someone coaching you or telling you what to say? Like a priest, say, or LoT?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #70 on:** August 05, 2017, 02:55:17 PM »

Merry

I was sent to Catholic Schools, back in the 40's and the only subject I loved was my religion class.

Every other subject I just about passed.

Lucky for me also, my parents were poor and sent me to the poorest of the poorest Catholic schools in Chicago where the old nuns and priest were sent out to live the remainder of their life. Therefore, they gave us a very good Catholic education.

I remember most of it, but must admit I have to look up the sources since I am not good at remembering all those laws and where to find them.

Speaking of Limbo: I was thought an interesting theory by these nuns, they would tell us that theologians would theorize and debate the idea that at the end of time, there would only be Heaven and Hell, Purgatory would no longer exist nor would Limbo. They would theorize that all the unbaptized babies would be given a test by God to see if where they would be placed.

Since then I have offered prayers for the babies in Limbo, that they will pass the test if this was true. I like to think it is.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #71 on:** August 05, 2017, 03:21:28 PM »

Myrna, you are missing the most important aspect of baptism - becoming a member of the church! A justified non catholic is still not a catholic! The state of grace (i.e. The state of justification) does not make one a member of the Church!

Your quotes do not answer this problem.

If a non catholic (or some Indian on an abandoned island) makes a perfect act of contrition, God can forgive him his sins, but that doesn't make him eligible to go to heaven because he's still not catholic.

In the same way, if a lonely Indian, a non catholic or even a catechumen knows what it is to be a catholic and desires baptism, they receive the state of grace but they have NOT received baptism, or membership or the baptismal mark, therefore they cannot go to heaven. If they die before receiving baptism, and they are still in the state of grace, They would go to Limbo.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #72 on:** August 05, 2017, 04:45:03 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 05, 2017, 03:21:28 PM

Myrna, you are missing the most important aspect of baptism - becoming a member of the church! A justified non catholic is still not a catholic! The state of grace (i.e. The state of justification) does not make one a member of the Church!

Your quotes do not answer this problem.

If a non catholic (or some Indian on an abandoned island) makes a perfect act of contrition, God can forgive him his sins, but that doesn't make him eligible to go to heaven because he's still not catholic.

In the same way, if a lonely Indian, a non catholic or even a catechumen knows what it is to be a catholic and desires baptism, they receive the state of grace but they have NOT received baptism, or membership or the baptismal mark, therefore they cannot go to heaven. If they die before receiving baptism, and they are still in the state of grace, They would go to Limbo.

I make it a point not to discuss baptism of desire of the catechumen with persons before I know if they also believe that people can be saved without explicit belief in Christ or the Holy Trinity. What is the point of discussing the finer points of explicit desire, when they do not believe that real desire is necessary for baptism of desire?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #73 on:** August 05, 2017, 05:17:15 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 05, 2017, 03:21:28 PM

Myrna, you are missing the most important aspect of baptism - becoming a member of the church! A justified non catholic is still not a catholic! The state of grace (i.e. The state of justification) does not make one a member of the Church!

Your quotes do not answer this problem.

If a non catholic (or some Indian on an abandoned island) makes a perfect act of contrition, God can forgive him his sins, but that doesn't make him eligible to go to heaven because he's still not catholic.

In the same way, if a lonely Indian, a non catholic or even a catechumen knows what it is to be a catholic and desires baptism, they receive the state of grace but they have NOT received baptism, or membership or the baptismal mark, therefore they cannot go to heaven. If they die before receiving baptism, and they are still in the state of grace, They would go to Limbo.

On Resurrection Day when our body and soul will unite we will either be saved or damned.

This character the mark placed upon our soul through the SACRAMENT and not the desire of Baptism which is not a Sacrament.

Baptism of Desire or “flaminis” because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind. Baptism of desire is called baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Since the Holy Ghost is God and can do all things it is possible that those baptized through His power are certainly members of the Church. Or do you deny that God can do all things?

Perhaps they become member much of the same way that those just men in the Old Testament became members. Or would you rather believe that God did it for them, but now He is limited?

Has it ever occurred to you that Father Feeney is wrong on this denial? Or would you rather believe that the whole church has been wrong all along till Father Feeney came along and corrected the Church?
Remember too: Outside the Church, there is No Salvation.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #74 on:** August 05, 2017, 05:57:47 PM »

You contradicted yourself at least 2 times above.

Author Topic: Justification (Read 15724 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: Justification

Merry

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

Last Tradhican

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

Pax Vobis

Re: Justification

Incredulous

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

Merry

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

Pax Vobis

Re: Justification

Last Tradhican

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

Pax Vobis

Re: Justification