Author Topic: Justification (Read 15222 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #45 on:** August 04, 2017, 11:50:31 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on August 04, 2017, 11:07:38 AM

Why is that! Because it doesn't agree with you?
Father Feeney is infallible?
www.Baptismofdesire.com

Uhm, because it doesn't meet any of the notes of infallibility?

So, do you know this clown, bosco, who put up that absurd website? You keep promoting it.

happenby · « **Reply #46 on:** August 04, 2017, 12:10:32 PM »

Trent's statement says:

This translation cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof.

So, let's ask Trent's sentence...

Can 'this translation' be effected without the laver of regeneration? The sentence says it cannot.

Can 'this translation' be effected by the desire thereof? The sentence says it cannot.

The sentence clearly says: This translation cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or (without) the desire thereof. Cannot and without apply to the conditions indicated: laver and desire.

Bod'ers twist the sentence around to say that 'this translation' CAN happen without laver, and 'this translation' CAN happen without desire because 'or' means either/or.

The result of a convoluted bod interpretation is the exact opposite of what the sentence says! Bod'ers attempt to explain away the chaos by saying desire includes laver and laver includes desire. But, for bod to occur, laver of regeneration is specifically not included! And what happens when one gets baptized but does not desire it? Hello! They are not baptized because you cannot baptize the unwilling. Further, why the warning from this sentence? Unless one believes in another baptism where one of these elements is missing (bod)!

What total contradiction is bod! Such misinterpretation of Trent does violence to the faith, to baptism, and denies the sentence itself.

Bod'ers love to quote the dogma, extra ecclesiam nulla salus, no salvation outside the church, but then deny the dogma in the same breath saying, BUT... people can actually be saved outside the church without the very thing that makes them a member! This relative doublespeak is diabolical disorientation at its finest.

Stubborn · « **Reply #47 on:** August 04, 2017, 01:39:41 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on August 04, 2017, 11:23:58 AM

As far as Father Feeney, I have read that he has repented of the misunderstanding that he caused so many to come to deny what the Church teaches about BOD/BOB.

There's that misunderstanding I told you about.
No, he never repented of anything Meg, he was excommunicated for disobedience to his superior, the crook archbishop Cushing, for defending the dogma of No Salvation Outside the Church.

What you are reading in these threads are the Cushingites against the Feeneyites.

Per Wikipedia: At the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) Cushing played a vital role in drafting Nostra Aetate, the docuмent that officially absolved the Jews of deicide charge. His emotional comments during debates over the drafts were echoed in the final version:

Not only that: "In an unprecedented gesture of ecuмenism, he even encouraged Catholics to attend Billy Graham's crusades"

Stubborn · « **Reply #48 on:** August 04, 2017, 01:47:27 PM »

Text of Cardinal Cushing’s Address on Draft Statement on Jews

This is a translation of the Latin address by Richard Cardinal Cushing of Boston on the council’s draft declaration on the Jews at the council session of Sept. 28, 1964.

The declaration on the Jews and non-Christians is acceptable, in general. Through this Ecuмenical Council the Church must manifest to the whole world, and to all men, a concern which is genuine, an esteem all-embracing, a sincere charity — in a word, it must show forth Christ. And in this schema De Ecuмenismo, with its declarations on religious liberty and on the Jews and non-Christians, in a certain sense it does just that. I would propose, however, three amendments specifically on the Jews.

First: We must make our statement about the Jews more positive, less timid, more charitable. Our text well illustrates the priceless patrimony which the new Israel has received from the law and the prophets.

And it well illustrates what the Jews and Christians share in common. But surely we ought to indicate the fact that we sons of Abraham according to the spirit must show a special esteem and particular love for the sons of Abraham according to the flesh because of this common patrimony. As sons of Adam, they are our brothers: As sons of Abraham, they are the blood brothers of Christ.

The fourth paragraph of this declaration should manifest this and our obligation of special esteem, as a conclusion which logically flows from the first section.

Secondly: On the culpability of the Jews for the death of our Savior, as we read in Sacred Scriptures, the rejection of the Messiah by His own people is a mystery: a mystery which is indeed for our instruction, not for exaltation.

The parables and prophecies of Our Lord teach us this. We cannot judge the leaders of ancient Israel — God alone is their judge. And most certainly we cannot dare attribute to later generations of Jews the guilt of the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus or the death of the Savior of the world, except in the sense of the universal guilt in which all of us men share.

We know and we believe that Christ died freely, and He died for all men and because of the sins of all men, Jews and gentiles.

Therefore, in this declaration in clear and evident words we must deny that the Jews are guilty of the death of our Savior, except insofar as all men have sinned and on that account crucified Him and, indeed, still crucify Him. And especially, we must condemn any who would attempt to justify inequities, hatred or even persecution of the Jews as Christian actions.

All of us have seen the evil fruit of this kind of false reasoning. In this august assembly, in this solemn moment, we must cry out. There is no Christian rationale — neither theological nor historical — for any inequity, hatred or persecution of our Jєωιѕн brothers.

Great is the hope, both among Catholics and among our separated Christian brothers, as well as among our Jєωιѕн friends in the New World, that this sacred synod will make such a fitting declaration.

Thirdly and finally, I ask, venerable brothers, whether we ought not to confess humbly before the world that Christians, too frequently, have not shown themselves as true Christians, as faithful to Christ, in their relations with their Jєωιѕн brothers? In this our age, how many have suffered! How many have died because of the indifference of Christians, because of silence! There is no need to enumerate the crimes committed in our own time. If not many Christian voices were lifted in recent years against the great injustices, yet let our voices humbly cry out now.

Merry · « **Reply #49 on:** August 04, 2017, 01:50:46 PM »

- not long after which the Cardinal said, "I don't understand what's going on here. I gotta get back to Boston and keep raising money for charity...".

And so he did.

(By the way, he never did like Fr. Feeney much after Fr. beat him in a debate at BC High School.)

Stubborn · « **Reply #50 on:** August 04, 2017, 01:55:05 PM »

It was bishop Cushing, who as one "well respected" was promoted to Cardinal Cushing - - read below to learn a little about the man behind the silenced, slandered and excommunicated Fr. Feeney. Today's BODers carry the torch of +Cushing.

Link
Archbishop of Boston Cushing, was made a Cardinal of the Catholic Church by Pope John XXXIII in 1958.

He was also one of the cardinal electors in the 1963 papal conclave, which selected Pope Paul VI.

He was on good terms with practically the entire Boston elite.

Cushing built useful(?) relationships with Jews, Protestants, and institutions outside the usual Catholic community.

At the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) Cushing played a vital role in drafting Nostra Aetate, the docuмent that officially absolved the Jews of deicide charge.

He was deeply committed to implementing the Council's reforms and promoting renewal in the Church.[16] In an unprecedented gesture of ecuмenism, he even encouraged Catholics to attend Billy Graham's crusades.

He was a member of the NAACP.

Oh, and his sister was married to a Jew

Point Magazine May 1953
Among other poses, Archbishop Cushing was photographed for the Boston newspapers this past month wearing a large smile and the habit of a Franciscan friar. The occasion was his being made an honorary member of the friars’ First Order. After the ceremony, which took place in the auditorium of a local insurance company, the Archbishop had this to say: “I have always done my humble best to follow in the footsteps of Saint Francis of Assisi.” – [Sound like Francis the humble to anyone?]

Link May 1945 - Cushing attends interfaith dinner

Link Nov. 1948 - Archbishop Cushing, dwelling on the need for brotherhood, pledged the friendship of American Catholics with Jews.

Link April 1949 - Archbishop Cushing says teaching the dogma of No salvation outside the Church is “teaching ideas leading to bigotry.” Group is censured for publishing quarterly magazine contending that persons dying outside the Church could not be saved.

Link April 1949 - New catechism is changed, now upholds Boston College and Archbishop Cushing claim that there is salvation outside the Church.

Link Oct. 1949 - Fr. Feeney silenced by Archbishop Cushing for preaching there is no salvation outside the Church.

Link April 1949 - Cushing states: “This absolute requirement of an explicit desire to join the Catholic Church, as a condition of salvation is clearly wrong. All theologians hold that faith and charity or perfect contrition involving an implicit desire to join the Church suffice for salvation.” (Sounds like LoT, Ambrose, &etc.)

Link Feb. 1953 - Cushing excommunicated “heresy priest” for disobedience, not for heresy.

Link
Nov. 1970 - Cardinal Cushing receives praise from the Jews

Jєωιѕн leaders expressed sorrow today over the death yesterday at the age of 75 of Richard Cardinal Cushing. Archbishop of Boston since 1944 and a friend of Israel and the Jews. Philip E. Hoffman, president of the American Jєωιѕн Committee, said “Jєωιѕн people throughout the world will always remember with satisfaction Cardinal Cushing’s efforts to achieve an honest and meaningful statement on the Roman Catholic Church and the Jews five years ago in Rome at the Second Vatican Council.” Cardinal Cushing he said, “was at the forefront in this tremendously important endeavor,” and “the positive results of Vatican Council II will be a lasting memorial to the Cardinal.” World Jewry. Mr. Hoffman said, “has lost a friend and champion.” Seymour Graubard, national chairman of the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith. said Jews the world over will always remember the dramatic plea Cardinal Cushing made on the floor of Vatican Council II five years ago in Rome. “His distinctive voice echoed through the chamber as he asked the Council to “cry out” against “any inequity, hatred or persecution of our Jєωιѕн brothers,”

The UAHC official added that Cardinal Cushing “was a liberal in the truest sense of the word, practicing the principles of ecuмenism long before the term became fashionable.”

Cardinal Cushing, whose efforts at ecuмenism extended to ѕуηαgσgυє oratory, received a rare tribute when he implored Vatican Council II to reject the doctrine of Jєωιѕн guilt for the death of Jesus. The bishops, who normally do not applaud speakers, did so for him.

Link July 1977 - Fr. Feeney, silenced in 1949, excommunicated in 1953 for condemning the teachings of Boston College that persons outside the Church could attain salvation after death, was reinstated in 1972 without having to recant his position.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #51 on:** August 04, 2017, 02:23:21 PM »

Myrna,
Back to the original post, the book excerpt, as well as your title, and Trent, deals with justification, which is the state of being just (i.e. in the state of grace). The Bible says that Joseph, Job, etc were "just men", meaning they were holy and in the state of sanctifying grace.

A non-catholic can be justified (i.e. receive sanctifying grace) through Baptism or...as Trent says, through the desire of it. No where does Trent, or your book quote, say that a justified person receives baptism. They do not. Ergo, this quote in no way supports BOD. Neither does Trent.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #52 on:** August 04, 2017, 02:24:19 PM »

Getting back on track now:

Honest question to those who deny BOD, do you also deny Act of Perfect Contrition.

Defined as the Church teaches, Contrition is perfect when we regret having sinned, especially sinned mortally, (mortal sin) we regret not because of our fear of Hell but because we Love God, our highest Good and true Father, a contrition out of love.

I believe Trent says this perfect contrition is not easy to obtain, but it is obtainable, and we should all beg God daily for this gift. Today more so since The Sacrament of Confession is not easy for many, it might be difficult for some to get to a priest.

What do you think would happen, in a case that might be right now as we speak to someone in the world. Someone who is in grave mortal sin, perhaps a bad marriage that they have been ignoring and presuming in God's mercy, but have no intention of rectifying the situation. They listen to a lecture on YOUtube about the passion of Christ and through the Grace of God they realize they have offended a Perfect God, the Creator of all, the God made Man who came down and suffered for them, they feel His stripes, and imagine the nails, oh! the suffering. How could they have continued with the living of their own will with no regard to Jesus Christ and His Cross.
This person through the grace of God, has been given a great gift. A Perfect Act of Contrition!
Does this PERFECT Act of Contrition take the place of the Sacrament of Penance?
NO, it does not.
Does the PERFECT Act of Contrition take away his mortal sin?
YES, but he still has to get to confession, ASAP.

What happens to his soul if he makes an honest attempt to get to confession, but is involved in a fatal car accident before he reaches a priest?

Do you people who deny BOD also deny the forgiveness of sins upon receiving a Perfect Act of Contrition as described according to the Church?

It is very much like the church teaching on BOD, and justification.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #53 on:** August 04, 2017, 02:46:52 PM »

Yes, both are very similar because if I ask myself: "Did I make a perfect act of contrition?" Answer: I don't know, only God knows.

Did that catechumen have a perfect desire for baptism? Answer: I don't know, only God knows.

Secondly, the main question is, does justification obtain heaven? No. So, if you preach BOD, you are setting people up to gain Limbo.

happenby · « **Reply #54 on:** August 04, 2017, 02:57:01 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on August 04, 2017, 02:24:19 PM

Getting back on track now:

Honest question to those who deny BOD, do you also deny Act of Perfect Contrition.

Defined as the Church teaches, Contrition is perfect when we regret having sinned, especially sinned mortally, (mortal sin) we regret not because of our fear of Hell but because we Love God, our highest Good and true Father, a contrition out of love.

I believe Trent says this perfect contrition is not easy to obtain, but it is obtainable, and we should all beg God daily for this gift. Today more so since The Sacrament of Confession is not easy for many, it might be difficult for some to get to a priest.

What do you think would happen, in a case that might be right now as we speak to someone in the world. Someone who is in grave mortal sin, perhaps a bad marriage that they have been ignoring and presuming in God's mercy, but have no intention of rectifying the situation. They listen to a lecture on YOUtube about the passion of Christ and through the Grace of God they realize they have offended a Perfect God, the Creator of all, the God made Man who came down and suffered for them, they feel His stripes, and imagine the nails, oh! the suffering. How could they have continued with the living of their own will with no regard to Jesus Christ and His Cross.
This person through the grace of God, has been given a great gift. A Perfect Act of Contrition!
Does this PERFECT Act of Contrition take the place of the Sacrament of Penance?
NO, it does not.
Does the PERFECT Act of Contrition take away his mortal sin?
YES, but he still has to get to confession, ASAP.

What happens to his soul if he makes an honest attempt to get to confession, but is involved in a fatal car accident before he reaches a priest?

Do you people who deny BOD also deny the forgiveness of sins upon receiving a Perfect Act of Contrition as described according to the Church?

It is very much like the church teaching on BOD, and justification.

An act of perfect contrition only applies to persons in the state of grace, i.e. the baptized. And then, only under the strictest of conditions. Honest question for those who deny the necessity of baptism, why do you deny Trent that teaches both the laver of regeneration AND the desire for it are necessary?

happenby · « **Reply #55 on:** August 04, 2017, 02:58:59 PM »

Time to repost this...

Baptism of desire (baptism of desire) denies the necessity of the sacrament of baptism for salvation.
baptism of desire mocks the sacrament of baptism because it is not a sacrament. It is not an outward sign instituted by Christ. It is not a gateway to the other sacraments, does not remit sin, does not impart the baptismal character, all things the church teaches are part of justification and necessary for salvation, and which are the very characteristics of true baptism.
baptism of desire promotes the Protestant heresy that faith alone/desire alone, saves.
baptism of desire leads many Catholics to believe abortion is a source of hope for infants.
baptism of desire contradicts the Catholic teaching: One Lord, one faith, one baptism, since, baptism of desire, by definition, is not at all the same as baptism.
baptism of desire does not make anyone a member of the Church, yet, the Church teaches infallibly that there is no salvation outside the Church.
baptism of desire causes good Catholics to use doublespeak and modern language to explain away its defects.
baptism of desire promotes laxity and indifferentism because many Catholics tend to rely on a person's desire for heaven rather than do the work to help get the person baptized.
baptism of desire is nothing like baptism because the grace is not assured.
baptism of desire is nothing like baptism since it makes the necessary elements unnecessary.
baptism of desire manages to reward perseverance in sin.
baptism of desire is not a sacrament, nor has it been defined, yet baptism of desire is said to replace baptism, the one sacrament that is necessary for salvation.
baptism of desire suggests the God is impotent, because due to circuмstance, the Almighty cannot provide the sacrament in time.
baptism of desire implies God is not author of life and death because those who desire it meet their death in an untimely manner before they can receive baptism.
baptism of desire makes liars of popes and saints who teach no one who dies outside the Catholic Church is saved.
baptism of desire raises the teachings of some saints above the teachings of Popes and the Church.
baptism of desire blurs the meaning of baptism, leaving many people open to the pit of hell.
baptism of desire is said to save some outside the Church, making the doctrine of "No Salvation Outside the Church" an empty teaching and a lie.
baptism of desire mocks the Holy Spirit Who tells us in scripture to be washed for the remission of sins.
baptism of desire makes Jesus a liar, Who says: "Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema".
baptism of desire mocks scripture 1 Peter 3:21 a verse that says "baptism now saves you" by suggesting that an unprovided death can do the same.
baptism of desire undermines the Council of Trent which took great care to define the form and matter of baptism in very specific detail.
baptism of desire denies the teaching that a person must be baptized by another.
baptism of desire denies this canon in Trent: "If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema' by removing the need for water.
baptism of desire is a fine example of how one twists into a metaphor the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "unless one is born of water and the Holy Spirit, let him be anathema."
baptism of desire voids another infallible canon in Trent that states: "If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."
baptism of desire by its very definition undermines Christ's missionary mandate.
baptism of desire suggests God would be unmerciful unless He contradicts Church teaching and provide salvation without baptism.
What baptism of desire is to Baptism, the New Mass is to the Traditional Latin Mass...twisted words and ideas culminating in the synthesis of all heresies.
baptism of desire is a sinister doppelganger designed to appear holy while it undermines a necessary sacrament
baptism of desire is a nothing more than Satan's counterfeit substitute for the necessary sacrament and by extension, a substitute of the sacramental system.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #56 on:** August 04, 2017, 03:11:12 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on August 04, 2017, 02:24:19 PM

Getting back on track now:

Honest question to those who deny BOD, do you also deny Act of Perfect Contrition.

Nope, this is clearly taught by Trent. YET ... Trent does not teach that the act of perfect contrition ALONE can restore to sanctifying grace. It teaches that the perfect contrition ALONG WITH the intention/desire to go to Confession can restore to grace.

But Trent does not teach the same thing about Baptism.

Why? That's because one of the graces of Baptism is the Sacramental Character, and so like Confirmation and Holy Orders, Sacraments that can never be received "by desire", Baptismal character, essential to having the supernatural virtues in the soul, cannot be received through desire.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #57 on:** August 04, 2017, 04:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on August 04, 2017, 03:11:12 PM

Nope, this is clearly taught by Trent. YET ... Trent does not teach that the act of perfect contrition ALONE can restore to sanctifying grace. It teaches that the perfect contrition ALONG WITH the intention/desire to go to Confession can restore to grace.

But Trent does not teach the same thing about Baptism.

Why? That's because one of the graces of Baptism is the Sacramental Character, and so like Confirmation and Holy Orders, Sacraments that can never be received "by desire", Baptismal character, essential to having the supernatural virtues in the soul, cannot be received through desire.

Yes, Ladislaus, I said that, also BOD the person who receives it is a person who has passed away. In other words it DOES NOT EVEN COME INTO THE PICTURE IF THE SOUL IS ALIVE. It also does not take the place of The Sacrament, what it does is IF THE SACRAMENT, (Baptism of WATER), was NOT permitted to the soul prior to death. It is an avenue for grace, because of the Love the soul had for God and the person's will to do as God Willed was rewarded. In the eyes of God the will means everything.
BOD works much like the GIFT of a Perfect Act of Contrition. Again God knows those who love Him for He knows all things.
Again I will repeat, Perfect Act of Contrition does not take the place of Confession. See my note today at 2:24 for clarification:

Quote

Defined as the Church teaches, Contrition is perfect when we regret having sinned, especially sinned mortally, (mortal sin) we regret not because of our fear of Hell but because we Love God, our highest Good and true Father, a contrition out of love.

I believe Trent says this perfect contrition is not easy to obtain, but it is obtainable, and we should all beg God daily for this gift. Today more so since The Sacrament of Confession is not easy for many, it might be difficult for some to get to a priest.

What do you think would happen, in a case that might be right now as we speak to someone in the world. Someone who is in grave mortal sin, perhaps a bad marriage that they have been ignoring and presuming in God's mercy, but have no intention of rectifying the situation. They listen to a lecture on YOUtube about the passion of Christ and through the Grace of God they realize they have offended a Perfect God, the Creator of all, the God made Man who came down and suffered for them, they feel His stripes, and imagine the nails, oh! the suffering. How could they have continued with the living of their own will with no regard to Jesus Christ and His Cross.
This person through the grace of God, has been given a great gift. A Perfect Act of Contrition!
Does this PERFECT Act of Contrition take the place of the Sacrament of Penance?
NO, it does not.
Does the PERFECT Act of Contrition take away his mortal sin?
YES, but he still has to get to confession, ASAP.

What happens to his soul if he makes an honest attempt to get to confession, but is involved in a fatal car accident before he reaches a priest?

Do you people who deny BOD also deny the forgiveness of sins upon receiving a Perfect Act of Contrition as described according to the Church?

It is very much like the church teaching on BOD, and justification.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #58 on:** August 04, 2017, 04:39:57 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 04, 2017, 02:46:52 PM

Yes, both are very similar because if I ask myself: "Did I make a perfect act of contrition?" Answer: I don't know, only God knows.

Did that catechumen have a perfect desire for baptism? Answer: I don't know, only God knows.

Secondly, the main question is, does justification obtain heaven? No. So, if you preach BOD, you are setting people up to gain Limbo.

If the dying soul, after he passed away, woke up in Heaven, he too would know. Right?

What is your definition of Justification?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #59 on:** August 04, 2017, 04:56:24 PM »

Justification and Sanctification are one

The Council of Trent helped to clarify and reinforce the Church’s doctrine of justification, by focusing on sanctification as part of justification. The Council’s decrees laid to rest the heretical doctrines of the Protestant Reformers by insisting that justification of the believer is not a forensic declaration of a person’s righteousness, but an actual interior purification of the soul. Justification truly makes the soul just through grace. Thus the sanctification of the soul is a necessary part of justification. Sin is not covered or concealed but is literally cleansed away by purification of sanctifying grace. Justification consists of one act of God that includes forgiveness of sin and sanctification of the soul. Thus a justified person is truly made pleasing to God.

Author Topic: Justification (Read 15222 times)

Ladislaus

Re: Justification

happenby

Re: Justification

Stubborn

Re: Justification

Stubborn

Re: Justification

Merry

Re: Justification

Stubborn

Re: Justification

Pax Vobis

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

Pax Vobis

Re: Justification

happenby

Re: Justification

happenby

Re: Justification

Ladislaus

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

Re: Justification