Reading today from my copy of "The Church Teaches" by Jesuit Fathers of St. Mary's College on Justification.

It reads: on page 232

Adults are disposed for justifiation in this way: Awakened and assisted by divine grace, they conceive faith from hearing Rom. 10:17, and they are freely led to God.  They believe that the divine revelation and promises are true, especially that the unjustified man is justified by God's grace "through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" Rom. 3:24.  Next, they know that they are sinners; and, by turning from a salutary fear of divine justice to a consideration of God's mercy, they are encouraged to hope, confident that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake.  They begin to love God as the source of all justice and are thereby moved by a sort of hatred and detestation for sin, that is, by the penance that must be done before baptism.  Finally, they determine to receive baptism, begin a new life, and keep the divine commandments. This disposition is described in Holy scripture:  "He who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder to those who seek Him" Heb 11:6 and "Take courage, son, thy sins are forgiven thee" Matt. 9;2, Mark 2:5; and. "The fear of the Lord driveth out sin" Ecclus. 1;27

All of the above takes place BEFORE THE Sacrament of Baptism by water if death should occur prior to said baptism is the reason why Council of Trent inserted the word OR desire.

I wonder in God's eyes what is more important, Love of God or water?

Call Our Lord a Feeneyite then.

"Unless a man be born again of WATER and the Holy Ghost, he SHALL NOT ENTER the Kingdom of God."

"Go forth and teach all nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."


You people - Pious Frauds.   

Too bad Aquinas missed this.  Where were you when he needed you?

Yes, too bad your interpretation of Aquinas leads you to deny Our Lord's Divine commands. The Church has words to describe such people.

So what you are saying is the person who gets baptised with water just because he wants to please his girlfriend or wife, and dies soon after goes to Heaven, but the other person who loves God and desires baptism but dies beforehand goes to Hell. 

In other words, the Love of God means very little to you.  Great logic!

 

So what you are saying is the person who gets baptised with water just because he wants to please his girlfriend or wife, and dies soon after goes to Heaven, but the other person who loves God and desires baptism but dies beforehand goes to Hell.

In other words, the Love of God means very little to you.  Great logic!

 

Talk about ridiculous logic.  Nobody's saying that a person who's baptized without the proper dispositions would be saved.  That's precisely why Trent taught that BOTH the Sacrament and the votum (routinely translated as desire but actually referring to all the dispositions necessary for Baptism) ... are necessary for justification and, therefore, for salvation.

No virtue on the part of the subject is salvific.  You're a Pelagian, Myrna (PS -- that's heresy).

Let us all be reminded that Trent said one can be justified by baptism or the desire of it.  Trent did not say they receive BAPTISM by the desire of it.  You must distinguish between justification and baptism.  Now, Trent did not fully explain this distinguishment (and I wish they had) but it is important.  It begs the question of 'where does a justified person go, if they die before actually receiving the sacrament?'  I don't know for certain, and the Church has not spoken on this matter.  The point is, that Trent told us one can receive sanctifying grace (i.e. justification) by desire; She has never said that Baptism can be received in the same manner.

Talk about ridiculous logic.  Nobody's saying that a person who's baptized without the proper dispositions would be saved.  That's precisely why Trent taught that BOTH the Sacrament and the votum (routinely translated as desire but actually referring to all the dispositions necessary for Baptism) ... are necessary for justification and, therefore, for salvation.

No virtue on the part of the subject is salvific.  You're a Pelagian, Myrna (PS -- that's heresy).

Trent said OR, although on a separate note both the desire and the Sacrament is necessary, however, the desire comes before the Sacrament and what happens if the desire is there but the catechumen DIES having fostered a love of God as described in the OP, before the sacrament with water can be administered?
That has always been the misunderstanding question.  
Thanks for encouraging me to look up the heresy of Pelagian.  No thanks!  

It's not our job to know what happens to such an individual.  All we can say is that God knows and allowed them to die for a reason.  Such a case does not give us a right to water-down the Church's perennial teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.  Our utter inability to understand the mysteries of salvation should make us trust in God's mercy, not "humanize" His teachings so we can understand them.

I agree with you completely but tell that to those who deny the mercy of God, they prefer to believe there is no hope for such a person who God has taken to His own, a person who loves God but through no fault of their own was not able to be Baptised with water.  The Church teaches there is such a happening as BOD that is not watering down Church teaching to remind others.  Baptism of water is indeed a Sacrament while BOD is not a sacrament however it does what the Church teaches it does.  Otherwise, Trent would not have inserted the words OR Desire.