Why Ladislaus surely you jest, you know I attend Mount St. Michael, in Spokane Washington.

Not sure about Lover of Truth or bosco.  

Pelagians?  You sound too emotional better talk to Pax about that!  

Emotion has nothing to do with it.  Pelagianism is a very specific theological error which all 3 of  you have embraced, and I have explained exactly how.

You're the one who tries to reinterpret the EENS definitions based on your sentimentality.

Reading today from my copy of "The Church Teaches" by Jesuit Fathers of St. Mary's College on Justification.

It reads: on page 232
All of the above takes place BEFORE THE Sacrament of Baptism by water if death should occur prior to said baptism is the reason why Council of Trent inserted the word OR desire.

I wonder in God's eyes what is more important, Love of God or water?

Just getting back on topic for Lad.


Adults are disposed for justification in this way: Awakened and assisted by divine grace, they conceive faith from hearing Rom. 10:17, and they are freely led to God.  They believe that the divine revelation and promises are true, especially that the unjustified man is justified by God's grace "through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" Rom. 3:24.  Next, they know that they are sinners; and, by turning from a salutary fear of divine justice to a consideration of God's mercy, they are encouraged to hope, confident that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake.  They begin to love God as the source of all justice and are thereby moved by a sort of hatred and detestation for sin, that is, by the penance that must be done before baptism.  Finally, they determine to receive baptism, begin a new life, and keep the divine commandments. This disposition is described in Holy Scripture:  "He who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder to those who seek Him" Heb 11:6 and "Take courage, son, thy sins are forgiven thee" Matt. 9;2, Mark 2:5; and. "The fear of the Lord driveth out sin" Ecclus. 1;27

-"The Church Teaches" by Jesuit Fathers of St. Mary's College.

Let us all be reminded that this book is not infallible and was written in 1955, clearly a time of pre-modernism and subtle heresy which was infecting the church.  This book clearly needs to be taken with MULTIPLE grains of salt.  Its orthodoxy is doubtful.

Why is that!   Because it doesn't agree with you?
Father Feeney is infallible?
www.Baptismofdesire.com

  EENS was under attack, and it remains under attack by even Trad clown such as LoT and Myrna, etc.  Father Feeney was attacked in the press and the media and by heresiarch Cushing for believing that only Catholics can be saved, and not because of BoD; that was just a side issue.

Watch that emotion Lad, or Pax will come after you.  

You and I of course disagree on the subject of sedevacantism, but I can find merit in the position that you have taken. I usually avoid the BoD threads, because I find the subject too difficult to thoroughly understand. But in trying to understand both sides, I find that yours might make a bit more sense.

Am I to understand that the subject seems to boil down to how far God's mercy can be extended to non-Catholics? It's understandable that catechumans can be saved, but how far beyond that can a person still not be a baptized Catholic, and be saved - that seems to be the question, though maybe I'm not seeing it properly. It seems to me that you do not extend God's mercy as far as JP2 or Vatican ll did (thankfully). And I have not seen that you have disparaged the views of Fr. Feeney at all, as I think one post has accused you of.

I admire Fr. Feeney for standing up for the Church, and facing persecution for it. I think that you admire him, too, from what I've seen, and that your view does not exclude the stand that Fr. Feeney took. Perhaps you can explain this more thoroughly. Thanks!

Thank you Meg!
BOD only happens if the person who is planning on Baptism of Water but dies beforehand, God knowing that the soul had a love of God.  It does not take the place of Baptism of water.  He is bound to receive the Sacrament of being baptized with water as long as he is still living, and might I add, he is bound to receive ASAP.   Not delay but receive The Sacrament after the preparation in the book I quoted.  
As far as Father Feeney, I have read that he has repented of the misunderstanding that he caused so many to come to deny what the Church teaches about BOD/BOB.  I hope that this is the case.  That is what I want to believe about Father Feeney.  I wish I could tell you where I read it, it was some time ago.
I think you will benefit if you take the time, Meg, to read this site:  www.baptismofdesire.com
Those who deny this teaching are afraid to read it it seems to me anyway, they become very emotional at the sight of it.
 

Why is that!   Because it doesn't agree with you?

Why is it not infallible?  Because it doesn't come directly from the pope, using his papal authority, nor does it come from a council teaching, with unanimous assent from the current magisterium.  Secondly, to be fair, Fr Feeney is also not infallible.  And no one on here would say he is.  Neither is any individual Church Father, nor Doctor, nor Saint.  Or bishop, cardinal, priest, or pope (unless such pope is speaking ex cathedra on faith and morals).

Secondly, I take all books with a grain of salt.  There's so much modernism out there, even in the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s - you cannot blindly trust a book just because it was pre-V2!

So where do this leave us?  Back at square one.  "Outside the Church there is no salvation" and "Unless a man be born again of water and the spirit he cannot have everlasting life."
To answer the question "Can a non-catholic be saved?" the answer is simply, "no".
To answer the question "Can an un-baptised catechumen attain heaven?" the answer is "no".  They could make it to limbo if they were justified.

The answer is simple because Church teaching is simple and Christ is simple:  "But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil."  (Matt 5:37)

I feel an honest reader here when they see you accuse ALL those who believe in the teachings of BOD, yet you stubbornly accuse them of being guilty of a heresy known as pelagianism they see your hot-blooded, meledramatic and strong feelings of emotion coming through your posts.  

Ridiculous and ignorant, Myrna.  That's absolutely false.  You need to retract this false accusation.  I specifically called out a couple posters here on CI, namely Arvinger and Nishant, who both believe in BoD, as NOT having fallen into Pelagianism and other errors that are held by MOST BoDers.