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Author Topic: Justification  (Read 15413 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Justification
« Reply #180 on: August 07, 2017, 02:15:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 07, 2017, 02:10:46 PM
    The teaching on "Soul of the Church" is a heresy.

    The definition of "Soul of the Church" in the "New Catholic Dictionary" (1929) provides an explanation for the origins of this term:

    Soul of the Church: "From the 16th century, the Catholic theologians expressed more definitely the theological doctrine of the distinction between the Soul and Body of the Church. . . This distinction. . . is formally expressed by Bellarmine in his study on the members of the Church. According to him, men belong to the Body of the Church by virtue of external profession of the faith, and participation in the sacraments; and to the Soul of the Church through the internal gifts of the Holy Ghost, faith, hope, and charity. He draws three general conclusions relative to the members of the Church. There are those: (a) Who belong always to both the Body and Soul of the Church; (b) Who belong to the Soul without belonging to the Body; (c) Who belong to the Body but not to the Soul. This teaching has generally been followed by Catholic theologians."

    In our list of quotes above, we present a quote from St. Robert Bellarmine on the Soul of the Church. As we all know, St. Bellarmine was later beatified, canonized, and given Doctor of the Church honors by Pope Pius XI (processes which never would have occurred had his teaching on the subject been considered heresy). The same teaching on "Soul of the Church" was also taught by St. Pope Pius X, Baltimore Catechism, Canon Law, Catholic Encyclopedia, A Catholic Dictionary, and the Holy Office in 1949 (see above for quotes on each).

    So to say the teaching on "Soul of the Church" is a heresy, we would also logically have to declare as heretical St. Robert Bellarmine for teaching it, Pope Leo XIII for approving of it in the Baltimore Catechism, St. Pope Pius X for including it in his catechism, Pope Pius XII for approving the letter from the Holy Office in 1949, and to condemn the other Catholic references mentioned as well. Yet there has not been a single condemnation of any of these sources. And let's not forget, there has been over 25 popes since St. Robert Bellarmine was alive, all of which could have condemned him if he had taught heresy, but they did not.
    More garbage.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #181 on: August 07, 2017, 02:16:18 PM »
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    • If the Church has openly taught the three-fold Baptism throughout it’s entire history, and never declared it to be heresy, why are lay people doing so today?
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #182 on: August 07, 2017, 02:18:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 07, 2017, 02:16:18 PM
    If the Church has openly taught the three-fold Baptism throughout it’s entire history, and never declared it to be heresy, why are lay people doing so today?
    The Church teaches ONE Baptism, not three.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #183 on: August 07, 2017, 02:19:56 PM »
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    • The Sacrament of Baptism, which was instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ, imprints a "character" on the soul, admitting the recipient to membership in the Catholic Church. The matter of Baptism is natural water poured over the head of the person to be baptized. Throughout the history of the Catholic Church it has been unanimously taught that both Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood, while not Sacraments in themselves, can supply the grace of the Sacrament, when Baptism of Water becomes a physical or moral impossibility.
     
    In the late 1940s and early 1950s, a Jesuit priest named Father Leonard Feeney was known to publicly oppose the doctrine on the threefold Baptism, where he accepted only water Baptism. His doctrinal position came to be known as Feeneyism, and those supporting his position came to be known as Feeneyites. Since Father Feeney passed away in 1978, Feeneyism has become an epidemic among Catholics today. The main reason this epidemic exists is because Catholics do not understand the concept of the Magisterium of the Church. This website was created to set the record straight, showing that Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood, and Baptism of Water (the three-fold Baptism) is a Catholic doctrine taught since the earliest days of the Catholic Church. Read below for an explanation of why Catholics MUST believe this doctrine. Note the core of this website consists primarily of just one page (directly below, and in PDF format from the menu above), which takes only a few minutes to read.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #184 on: August 07, 2017, 02:21:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 07, 2017, 02:19:56 PM
    The Sacrament of Baptism, which was instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ, imprints a "character" on the soul, admitting the recipient to membership in the Catholic Church. The matter of Baptism is natural water poured over the head of the person to be baptized. Throughout the history of the Catholic Church it has been unanimously taught that both Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood, while not Sacraments in themselves, can supply the grace of the Sacrament, when Baptism of Water becomes a physical or moral impossibility.
     
    In the late 1940s and early 1950s, a Jesuit priest named Father Leonard Feeney was known to publicly oppose the doctrine on the threefold Baptism, where he accepted only water Baptism. His doctrinal position came to be known as Feeneyism, and those supporting his position came to be known as Feeneyites. Since Father Feeney passed away in 1978, Feeneyism has become an epidemic among Catholics today. The main reason this epidemic exists is because Catholics do not understand the concept of the Magisterium of the Church. This website was created to set the record straight, showing that Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood, and Baptism of Water (the three-fold Baptism) is a Catholic doctrine taught since the earliest days of the Catholic Church. Read below for an explanation of why Catholics MUST believe this doctrine. Note the core of this website consists primarily of just one page (directly below, and in PDF format from the menu above), which takes only a few minutes to read.
    More contrary garbage to Catholic Church teaching
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #185 on: August 07, 2017, 02:22:50 PM »
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    • 2. Ordinary Magisterium: this second form of Church teaching is “continually exercised by the Church especially in her universal practices connected with faith and morals, in the unanimous consent of the Fathers and theologians, in the decisions of the Roman Congregations concerning faith and morals, in the common sense of the Faithful, and various historical docuмents, in which the faith is declared.” (Definition from “A Catholic Dictionary”, 1951)

    So, according to this definition, the Ordinary Magisterium (also referred to as the Universal Ordinary Magisterium) is Church teaching that is continuous and unanimously consented to throughout the Church.

    "A Commentary on Canon Law" (Augustine, 1918, Canon 1323, pg 327) states: "The universal and ordinary magisterium consists of the entire episcopate, according to the constitution and order defined by Christ, i.e., all the bishops of the universal Church, dependently on the Roman Pontiff". It also states, "What the universal and approved practice and discipline proposes as connected with faith and morals must be believed. And what the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide."

    The Ordinary Magisterium is where the majority of Catholic beliefs are taught and learned; through unanimous teaching by preaching, by any written means, the approval of catechisms, the approval of textbooks for use in seminaries, etc.

    Some examples of the Ordinary Magisterium would be that of Guardian Angels, or the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary (before 1950). While neither were solemnly defined by the Church (before 1950), they were always universally taught and believed, and it would be considered heresy to deny them.

    For example, Arius was considered a heretic before his condemnation at the Council of Nicaea in 325, because the Divinity of Christ (which he denied) was part of the teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium before that Council. The same applies to Nestorius regarding his denial of the Divine Maternity of the Blessed Virgin, where he was later declared a heretic by the Solemn Magisterium at the Council of Ephesus.

    So in a nutshell, the Solemn Magisterium (used rarely) plus the Ordinary Magisterium (used continuously) equals the complete infallible teaching of the Catholic Church.  The article "Science and the Church" from the Catholic Encyclopedia (1917) states it well: "The official activity of teaching may be exercised either in the ordinary, or daily, magisterium, or by occasional solemn decisions. The former goes on uninterruptedly; the latter are called forth in times of great danger, especially of growing heresies."

    Finally, the most frequent reason why the Solemn Magisterium is used is in order to confirm a doctrine which already belongs to the Ordinary Magisterium, but which has come under attack, usually by heretics.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #186 on: August 07, 2017, 02:23:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 07, 2017, 02:16:18 PM
    If the (Vatican II) church has openly taught the three-fold Baptism throughout it’s entire history  (that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Bhuddists etc. can be saved by their belief in a creator god.)and never declared it to be heresy, why are lay people doing so today?

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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #187 on: August 07, 2017, 02:24:41 PM »
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    • St. Cyprian, Church Father (3rd Century): The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle LXXII: "Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favourers of heretics, know therefore, first, that those catechumens hold the sound faith and truth of the Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of God the Father, and of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood".

    Epistle LXXII, To Jubaianus, Concerning the Baptism of Heretics: "Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favourers of heretics, know therefore, first, that those catechumens hold the sound faith and truth of the Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of God the Father, and of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord also said, that He had "another baptism to be baptized with."

    The Treatises Of Cyprian, Treatise XI, Exhortation to Martyrdom, Addressed to Fortunatus: "In the baptism of water is received the remission of sins, in the baptism of blood the crown of virtues. This thing is to be embraced and desired, and to be asked for in all the entreaties of our petitions, that we who are God's servants should be also His friends."
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #188 on: August 07, 2017, 02:28:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on August 07, 2017, 01:04:25 PM
    Not to sound contradictory as I would hope to sound for LOT's garbage, I don't see how this passage suggests that Justification is not Salvation.  Justification is essentially salvation this side of heaven.  If you have it when you die you go. 
    Trent is talking about justification, not salvation.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #189 on: August 07, 2017, 02:36:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 07, 2017, 02:16:18 PM
    If the Church has openly taught the three-fold Baptism throughout it’s entire history, and never declared it to be heresy, why are lay people doing so today?
    St. Paul said; One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    Now go ahead and make the distinction for us - How many baptisms are there?



    When was the war of 1812?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #190 on: August 07, 2017, 02:40:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 07, 2017, 02:29:29 PM
    St. Hippolytus of Rome (3rd century): Canons of Hypolytus, Can. XIX: Concerning Catechumens: "Catechumens, who by the unbelievers are arrested and killed by martyrdom, before they received baptism, are to be buried with the other martyrs, for they are baptized in their own blood."
    Tell us what Pope Eugene meant when he said unless he is a member of the Church he cannot be saved even if he sheds his blood for the name of Christ.

    Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence  (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #191 on: August 07, 2017, 04:10:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 07, 2017, 02:40:50 PM
    Tell us what Pope Eugene meant when he said unless he is a member of the Church he cannot be saved even if he sheds his blood for the name of Christ.

    Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence  (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one [non-members], whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
    What exactly is it that prompts you to reject the infallible teaching above of Pope Eugene and the Council of Florence?

    Why do you entirely ignore the teachings which we are bound to believe?

    You paste things like this below, which is one of your quotes, as if they say the same thing as infallible teachings like the one above - CAN YOU NOT SEE YOUR QUOTE IS WRONG, IS NOW HERESY - ACCORDING TO POPE EUGENE IV?

    St. Hippolytus of Rome (3rd century): Canons of Hypolytus, Can. XIX: Concerning Catechumens: "Catechumens, who by the unbelievers are arrested and killed by martyrdom, before they received baptism, are to be buried with the other martyrs, for they are baptized in their own blood."
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #192 on: August 07, 2017, 08:07:17 PM »
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    • Sorry gentlemen, but I could not resist, I have a large family to support:

    I sold L.O.T the Brooklyn Bridge for a pretty sum.

    I'm sorry, but I have to make up for all the time I wasted here on CI in the past trying to convince him of the truth. Time is money!

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    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #193 on: August 07, 2017, 08:52:40 PM »
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    • LoT is almost comical, Stubborn posts the infallible word of God, and he comes back with adjacent fallible quotes from early church fathers. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #194 on: August 08, 2017, 06:14:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: tdrev123 on August 07, 2017, 08:52:40 PM
    LoT is almost comical, Stubborn posts the infallible word of God, and he comes back with adjacent fallible quotes from early church fathers.
    We can only conclude what he's doing is, continually striving to prove that the dogma is wrong. There simply is no other explanation for his heretical antics. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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