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Author Topic: Justification  (Read 16139 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Justification
« Reply #150 on: August 07, 2017, 01:04:17 PM »
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  • Decree on Justification (Session 6, Chapter 4):
    “In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the ‘adoption of the Sons’ (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the layer of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5).”
    This must be a newsflash - - - -Justification is not salvation.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #151 on: August 07, 2017, 01:04:25 PM »
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  • ST. ROBERT BELLARMINE, Doctor of the Church (1542-1621)
    Liber II, Caput XXX:
    “Boni Catehecuмeni sunt de Ecclesia, interna unione tantum, non autem externa” (Good catechumens are of the Church, by internal union only, not however, by external union).
    This cannot be determined to be Catholic teaching when it contradicts Catholic teaching.  Just because something is written in Latin doesn't make it Church teaching.  


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #152 on: August 07, 2017, 01:05:41 PM »
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  • POPE PIUS IX (1846-1878) — Singulari Quadam, 1854:

    174. “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (see John 3:2) all we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine mercy with divine justice.”
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #153 on: August 07, 2017, 01:06:58 PM »
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  • This must be a newsflash - - - -Justification is not salvation.
    Not to sound contradictory as I would hope to sound for LOT's garbage, I don't see how this passage suggests that Justification is not Salvation.  Justification is essentially salvation this side of heaven.  If you have it when you die you go.  

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #154 on: August 07, 2017, 01:08:26 PM »
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  • Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863):
    “...We all know that those who are afflicted with invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law that have been written by God in the hearts of men, if they are prepare to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can attain eternal life by the power of divine light and grace.”
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #155 on: August 07, 2017, 01:08:53 PM »
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  • Does everyone see the merry-go-round at work? He goes back to square one quoting things that have nothing to do with the discussion.

    The man is unbalanced. I learned a LONG time ago that there is no way one can have a rational discussion with him. I suggest that anyone that wants to use the opportunity to teach do so, but do not respond directly to him, as it gives him a sense of importance and just encourages him to keep posting nothings.

    His dogma is that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists etc. can be saved by their belief in a creator god. Everything he posts is meant to teach that.  To him, all these dogmas below do not mean what they say, to him they they mean the same as HIS dogma.

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
    “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
    “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”

    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

    Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”


    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #156 on: August 07, 2017, 01:09:13 PM »
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  • Pope Pius IX's encyclical is not infallible.  He was not defining anything and did not declare it to be held by all the faithful as a matter of faith.  Therefore his encyclical is from his personal teaching office as Bishop of Rome, an office where he is NOT protected from error, just like any other bishop.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #157 on: August 07, 2017, 01:10:14 PM »
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  • POPE PIUS XII (1939-1958) — Mystical Body of Christ (June 29, 1943):
    “As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible organization of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly... For even though unsuspectingly they are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer in desire and resolution, they still remain deprived of so many precious gifts and helps from heaven, which one can only enjoy in the Catholic Church.”
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #158 on: August 07, 2017, 01:11:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    Pope Pius IX's encyclical is not infallible.  He was not defining anything and did not declare it to be held by all the faithful as a matter of faith.  Therefore his encyclical is from his personal teaching office as Bishop of Rome, an office where he is NOT protected from error, just like any other bishop.
    Same thing for Pius XII's encyclical...

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #159 on: August 07, 2017, 01:11:56 PM »
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  • POPE PIUS IX (1846-1878) — Singulari Quadam, 1854:

    174. “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (see John 3:2) all we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine mercy with divine justice.”
    Invincible ignorance is an oxymoron demanding that man believes God cannot penetrate some ignorance.  The Church has spoken.  This does not say anyone will be saved without Baptism, outside the Church, but that we have to wait to see exactly how so-called "invincible" ignorance fits.  The pope here sounds perplexed, but preceded this (and dare I say finished right after this) with EENS.  This miserably fails to convey any notion that Baptism is not necessary or that the Church is not necessary, or that bod exists.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #160 on: August 07, 2017, 01:12:48 PM »
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  • FR. A. TANQUERY, Dogmatic Brevior; ART. IV, Section I, II - 1945 (1024-1)
    The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.
    This is certain.
    Explanation: a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism.
    b) Perfect charity, with a desire for Baptism, forgives original sin and actual sins, and therefore infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the Baptismal character and does not of itself remit the whole temporal punishment due for sin; whence, when the Unity offers, the obligation remains on
     one who was sanctified in this manner of receiving the Baptism of water.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #161 on: August 07, 2017, 01:18:53 PM »
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  • How many times can an unbaptised person receive baptism of desire?  How many times can they be justified?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #162 on: August 07, 2017, 01:26:47 PM »
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  • FR. FRANCIS O’CONNELL, Outlines of Moral Theology, 1953:
    • “Baptism of Desire... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition...”
    • “These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood and Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament.”
    • “...Even if an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith....”
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #163 on: August 07, 2017, 01:31:38 PM »
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  • So we make LoT look like a fool for his lack of any competence in theology, and he starts spamming again.  That's his usual response when he gets thoroughly refuted and confounded.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Justification
    « Reply #164 on: August 07, 2017, 01:32:51 PM »
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  • MGR. J. H. HERVE, Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae (Vol. III: chap. IV), 1931
    II. On those for whom Baptism of water can be supplied:
    The various baptisms: from the Tridentinum itself and from the things stated, it stands firm that Baptism is necessary, yet in fact or in desire; therefore in an extraordinary case it can be supplied. Further, according to the Catholic doctrine, there are two things by which the sacrament of Baptism can be supplied: namely, an act of perfect charity with the desire of Baptism, and the death as martyr. Since these two are a compensation for Baptism of water, they themselves are called Baptism, too, in order that they may be comprehended with it under one, as it were, generic name, so the act of love with desire for Baptism is called Baptismus flaminis (Baptism of the Spirit) and the martyrium (Baptism of Blood).
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church