Author Topic: Justification (Read 7780 times)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2017, 06:43:38 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on August 03, 2017, 03:09:01 PM

If you believe in BoD, in order to remain Catholic, you have to say that the Sacrament saves by operating through the desire, and not that the desire saves. One is Catholic, the other Pelagian heretic. 99% of you BoDers are on the Pelagian heretic side.

So now Ladislaus is calling all those PELAGIAN who believe as the OP explains from a Traditional Catholic book, that the desire to be Baptised comes with preparation, grace AND the desire for baptism, then in usual circuмstances, the priest along with the catechumen sets a time. Yes, it makes sense that the Sacrament itself depends on proper disposition which is the preparation done in good will BEFORE THE SACRAMENT and properly pouring of the water. OR THE DESIRE, if for some unknown, unexpected death beforehand. Consider that God, as the Church teaches has in the past, worked within a soul about to be martyred for the Faith this saving grace within seconds of many Catholic Saints who were not offered the SACRAMENT but the saving grace of God, why because God knew the love the soul had for God.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2017, 08:34:59 PM »

Quote from: GJC on August 03, 2017, 06:53:41 PM

:applause: Bingo! Why is this so hard to understand...

Yes, the Sacrament saves firstly, but so does the desire of when the Sacrament can not be administrated if death is imminent.
Why is this so hard to understand ...

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2017, 08:54:20 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 06:19:32 PM

Quote

It's not our job to know what happens to such an individual. All we can say is that God knows and allowed them to die for a reason. Such a case does not give us a right to water-down the Church's perennial teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation. Our utter inability to understand the mysteries of salvation should make us trust in God's mercy, not "humanize" His teachings so we can understand them.

Quote

Myrna said:
I agree with you completely but tell that to those who deny the mercy of God, they prefer to believe there is no hope for such a person who God has taken to His own, a person who loves God but through no fault of their own was not able to be Baptised with water. The Church teaches there is such a happening as BOD that is not watering down Church teaching to remind others. Baptism of water is indeed a Sacrament while BOD is not a sacrament however it does what the Church teaches it does. Otherwise, Trent would not have inserted the words OR Desire.

Myrna,
Your answer above is filled with what is called "sentimental theology". We must stick with the facts. 1) Person A was a catechumen who desired baptism. 2) Person A died before receiving the sacrament. 3) Church teaching says one MUST receive baptism to be a member. 4) Person A did not die a member of the Church.

Now, Trent says that a person who desires baptism can obtain JUSTIFICATION (i.e. sanctifying grace). It does NOT say one can desire/receive the sacrament. Therefore, Person A above, we can assume had the proper desire and, at some point, was justified (this would be between him and God, because there's no way for anyone to know when/if it happened. Just like a perfect act of contrition...how would any of us know if we made a perfect one, which is good enough for sanctifying grace? We don't. We just hope.)

The point is, the problematic phrases of your argument are these:
1. "They prefer to believe there is no hope for such a person"
Answer: No one said there is no hope for them; all we can say is that they died before receiving the sacrament. Just as the Church doesn't say with certainty that Person B who commits ѕυιcιdє is in hell, so the Church doesn't say that our catechumen Person A is in hell. However, the Church DOES say, GENERALLY, that those who commit ѕυιcιdє would go to hell, and those who haven't received baptism do not go to heaven.

2. "A person who loves God but through no fault of their own was not able to be baptised"
Answer: How do we know Person A really loved God? How do we know what was his REAL reason for being baptised? How do we know his death was not a judgement from God based on his private, moral life, of which none of us was aware? Maybe he was a closet drug dealer, or user, or beat his wife and kids, or was addicted to gambling? We don't know. All we know is he was at church, was taking classes and he said he wanted to be baptised. This doesn't prove that he was a walking saint who automatically cooperated with every grace given by God. If such a person died before baptism, all we can say is that God "knew what He was doing". Nobody dies without God knowing about it.

The point is, all we know are externals. We do not know the heart; only God does. The Church teaches based on the external and visible signs because She is an external, visible Church. Thus, we make judgements based on the externals, just as the Church does. It is not harsh to do so, but is charitable. For St Peter tells us to 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling' and this applies to catechumens as well.

Motorede · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2017, 09:24:55 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on August 03, 2017, 06:43:38 PM

So now Ladislaus is calling all those PELAGIAN who believe as the OP explains from a Traditional Catholic book, that the desire to be Baptised comes with preparation, grace AND the desire for baptism, then in usual circuмstances, the priest along with the catechumen sets a time. Yes, it makes sense that the Sacrament itself depends on proper disposition which is the preparation done in good will BEFORE THE SACRAMENT and properly pouring of the water. OR THE DESIRE, if for some unknown, unexpected death beforehand. Consider that God, as the Church teaches has in the past, worked within a soul about to be martyred for the Faith this saving grace within seconds of many Catholic Saints who were not offered the SACRAMENT but the saving grace of God, why because God knew the love the soul had for God.

Dear Myrna: The book "Bread of Life", a series of casual talks given by Father Feeney, has been in print for over sixty years. Don't be afraid to read it and it will help you get rid of your confusion on this issue of justification and salvation; these are not the same thing. Also, read Bishop Hay's explanation of both graces: Actual and Sanctifying. An understanding of these graces, esp. of actual grace, is crucial for the correct understanding of this controversial topic. You must spend more time studying if you are to be fair to Father Feeney. And I get the impression that you want to be fair and charitable.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #19 on:** August 03, 2017, 10:25:19 PM »

Thank you, both Pax and Motorede for your kindness, thoughtful and charitable replies.

Just so you know that I do believe in BOB/BOD and of course Baptism of water the Sacrament; I also believe that there is No Salvation Outside the Church.

Just as you stated it is not our place to say, who or who isn't inside or outside the Church which has always been my argument against those who deny BOD.

May we all meet in Heaven someday.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2017, 10:55:53 PM »

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Just as you stated it is not our place to say, who or who isn't inside or outside the Church which has always been my argument against those who deny BOD.

We can accurately, positively and without hesitation say who is or isn't in the Church because the Church is a VISIBLE organization and to be a member you must VISIBLY join Her, though Baptism, which is a PUBLIC ceremony, with godparents who are WITNESSES and with RECORDS kept by the priest/diocese.

Those that do not receive baptism are not, objectively, members of the Church. This is undeniable. This is logic 101 and part of Church teaching.

The only thing we can say about catechumens who die short of baptism is "It's in God's hands". But that is NOT some endorsement of their salvation. We can't say for sure they are in heaven (because they aren't canonized). We can't say they were part of the church (they weren't baptized). We can't say they are in hell (the Church never says this). They are in limbo (figuratively and probably, literally).

Stubborn · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2017, 05:31:28 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on August 03, 2017, 02:05:24 PM

Reading today from my copy of "The Church Teaches" by Jesuit Fathers of St. Mary's College on Justification.

It reads: on page 232
All of the above takes place BEFORE THE Sacrament of Baptism by water if death should occur prior to said baptism is the reason why Council of Trent inserted the word OR desire.

Your OP serves as an excellent example of the typical BODer's consistent misreading and the resulting consistent misunderstanding of what the Church teaches.

The quote you posted is certainly Catholic teaching, but it does not teach a BOD, nor does it teach that those criteria will justify an adult, because if you actually read the quote that you yourself posted, the first sentence starts off by saying: "Adults are disposed for justifiation in this way:" It does not say "Adults are justified in this way", which is apparently what you seem to think it is teaching.

The truth is, because they consistently do not comprehend what is actually written, no one can really be sure what BODers think they read, all we can be certain of is that they do not comprehend what it is the Church is actually teaching, and then once corrected, they remain obstinate in their misunderstanding, which is their only constant. That much is all we can actually be certain of.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2017, 07:34:19 AM »

Stubborn et al, why not read this web site, it will be interesting how you can also twist the words printed there.

www.BaptismofDesire.com

BTW... Pax there are many notes here if you care to look them up that go back to where those who deny BOD do claim damnation upon souls who were for reasons known only to God, unable to receive water Baptism, The Sacrament, yet they had love for God.

Perhaps like yourself, have softened this claim which is a good thing.

Stubborn · « **Reply #23 on:** August 04, 2017, 08:12:21 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on August 04, 2017, 07:34:19 AM

Stubborn et al, why not read this web site, it will be interesting how you can also twist the words printed there.

www.BaptismofDesire.com

BTW... Pax there are many notes here if you care to look them up that go back to where those who deny BOD do claim damnation upon souls who were for reasons known only to God, unable to receive water Baptism, The Sacrament, yet they had love for God.

Perhaps like yourself, have softened this claim which is a good thing.

Why not read that evil site? If you read what I wrote above, did you understand it? If you understood what I wrote, then you know why that site is obviously heretical.

I will give a few quick examples to further prove what I said above is true. Please simply answer the questions. Not answering or ignoring the questions assumes you to be a dishonest BODer or a pious fraud as someone else said.

If you believe that St. Paul said: "One Lord, one faith one baptism."
How many baptisms are there?

If you believe that our Lord said: "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Can a man enter into the kingdom of God without water?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #24 on:** August 04, 2017, 08:25:02 AM »

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Pax there are many notes here if you care to look them up that go back to where those who deny BOD do claim damnation upon souls who were for reasons known only to God, unable to receive water Baptism, The Sacrament, yet they had love for God.

Perhaps like yourself, have softened this claim which is a good thing.

Myrna, salvation is not about "softening" or "being mean". It is about Church teaching. Your views on salvation are too emotional. You cannot confuse the Church's GENERAL teaching on salvation with Her SPECIFIC opinion on the Person A's salvation. 2 different things.

Example:
GENERAL, infallible, Church teaching:
- Outside the Church there is no salvation
- Unless you are born again of water and the spirit, you shall not enter heaven
- Unless you follow the 10 commandments, you will go to hell
- Conclusions:
1. Unless one receives baptism, and is a VISIBLE member of the Church, they do not make it to heaven.
2. Non-catholics, thus, are in hell.
3. Catholics and non-catholics who do not follow the 10 commandments are in hell.
4. Certain catechumens, who died before baptism, could be in limbo if they were justified. But this deals with such a small, handful of people; it's almost meaningless.

SPECIFIC, Church teaching:
1. Is John Doe, a non-catholic who didn't receive baptism, and died of a heart attack, in heaven? Church: "Probably not, because He didn't get baptised, but we don't know. Pray for him".
2. Is this John Doe in hell? "Probably, because he didn't get baptised, but we don't know. Pray for him."
3. Is Mary Jane, a catholic, who died of cancer in heaven? Church: "We don't know. She SEEMED to die a good death. Pray for her soul."
4. Is Mary Jane in hell? "We don't know. Pray for her soul."
5. Is Susie, a catechumen who died in a car accident before baptism, in heaven? Church: "We don't know. She was not baptised, so she can't have a catholic funeral, but pray for her."
6. Is Susie in hell? "Susie SEEMED to want to become part of the Church. Only God knows her heart and He called her to judgement. We don't know. She cannot have a catholic funeral since she wasn't a member, but pray for her."

I hope you see the differences between the GENERAL church teachings, which we MUST accept, and the SPECIFIC answers given about SPECIFIC people's deaths. The Church, and Christ, are not in the business of condeming people to hell for the fun of it. On the contrary, the Church was founded to save souls! But, you CANNOT contradict the GENERAL Church teaching out of emotion and for sentimental reasons, because it sounds "mean" to condemn a non-catholic to hell. It is not mean, it is Church teaching and the letter of the law. But as St Paul says, 'the letter of the law, without the spirit, kills.' Thus, the spirit of the law says to pray for non-catholics. But this does not mean that they are saved, because, based on appearances, they were not saved, since they didn't become catholics. And if they were not saved, there is a VERY good reason they were not, for God is all-just and does not condemn anyone to hell who does not deserve it.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #25 on:** August 04, 2017, 08:29:56 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on August 04, 2017, 08:12:21 AM

Why not read that evil site? If you read what I wrote above, did you understand it? If you understood what I wrote, then you know why that site is obviously heretical.

I will give a few quick examples to further prove what I said above is true. Please simply answer the questions. Not answering or ignoring the questions assumes you to be a dishonest BODer or a pious fraud as someone else said.

If you believe that St. Paul said: "One Lord, one faith one baptism."
How many baptisms are there?

If you believe that our Lord said: "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Can a man enter into the kingdom of God without water?

Evil site ... really! Church teaching evil?
There is only One SACRAMENT of Baptism, BOD is not a Sacrament
When Nicodemus asked Jesus who was not yet Crucified; and "Jesus said unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Yet, Jesus Himself later canonized the good thief from the Cross, without water since it was not available or use.
Read www.baptismofdesire.com, you may have to answer why you didn't someday. Unless of course you can't understand Church teaching.
Stubborn you can have the last word here, in the past I have learned from experience you are too stubborn to waste my time with.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #26 on:** August 04, 2017, 08:32:34 AM »

The good thief died under the old law, which required belief in the Redeemer, not baptism.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2017, 08:39:30 AM »

Quote from: Merry on August 03, 2017, 04:07:24 PM

#1 “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”
(Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

This quote right here is THE SINGLE BIGGEST problem for BoDers. "Faithful" (Latin fideles) is a technical theological term for the baptized; even catechumens are excluded from being among "the faithful". Msgr. Fenton himself admits this.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #28 on:** August 04, 2017, 08:40:51 AM »

I'd love to know which CMRI chapel all these Pelagians attend: LoT, bosco, Myrna. Clearly they all know eachother.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #29 on:** August 04, 2017, 09:02:32 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on August 04, 2017, 08:40:51 AM

I'd love to know which CMRI chapel all these Pelagians attend: LoT, bosco, Myrna. Clearly they all know eachother.

Why Ladislaus surely you jest, you know I attend Mount St. Michael, in Spokane Washington.

Not sure about Lover of Truth or bosco.

Pelagians? You sound too emotional better talk to Pax about that!

Author Topic: Justification (Read 7780 times)

MyrnaM

Re: Justification

MyrnaM

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Pax Vobis

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Motorede

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MyrnaM

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Pax Vobis

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Stubborn

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MyrnaM

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Stubborn

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Pax Vobis

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MyrnaM

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Pax Vobis

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Ladislaus

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Ladislaus

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MyrnaM

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