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Author Topic: Justification, the BoD of the Catechumen, and Classical "Feeneyism"  (Read 27172 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
So explain how the idea of a BOD can go from all the saints and catechisms you've been posting, to the catechism I posted. I mean, a catechism is a catechism - no?

The one I posted is what most trads and trad clergy actually believe - and has been the popular belief for probably the last +100 years. I do not know which catechism the one is that I posted as it is actually copied from a post of a former trad poster here on CI who was an avid defender of a BOD but who is now deceased, although I am pretty sure it's from 1931.

Doctrinal corruption, the coming on of the Great Apostasy for "the last +100 years," etc. 

But I think you know this, recognizing as you do outright heresy in the Conciliar popes and bishops. It didn't come out of nowhere. 

That's rather my point. 

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Doctrinal corruption, the coming on of the Great Apostasy for "the last +100 years," etc.

But I think you know this, recognizing as you do outright heresy in the Conciliar popes and bishops. It didn't come out of nowhere.

That's rather my point.
Doctrinal corruption yes, but because the whole idea of a BOD is just that, an idea, it is only logical that, unlike an actual doctrine of the Church, it evolves into an idea with different meanings and finds itself put into catechisms that ultimately reduces the sacrament itself to a meaningless sign.

  


  


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter

BoD is not a heresy per se, and the way you frame it actually shows that, since you equate it with a disbelief in "EENS," which is the acronym for the Latin phrase translated, "out the Church no salvation."

A strict BoD such as that mentioned in the Roman or Trent Catechism, and as stated in other contemporary explanations of the concept, show how a correct notion of BoD does show a belief (not disbelief) in EENS.

I agree that the strict understanding of BoD, as held by St. Robert Bellamine are not currently to be viewed as heretical.  I consider them objetively heretical, but my opinion has not been upheld by the Church.  I've long stated that this has been my disagrement with the Dimond Brothers.

I do argue, however, that it's objectively heretic, and that it will be formally condemned as such one day by the Church.

I disagree that Roman / Trent Catechism taught BoD; it intended to teach nothing more than that an adult with the proper dispositions, including "votum", which Trent included in the preparation for justification, would result in God's not permitting various obstacles to get in the way of their ultimate justification ... a dispositions which infants lack.  It requires a stretch to turn that into BoD, where if they did happen to die before their actual Baptism they would still be saved.  Those are two different things.

I have cited St. Fulgentiuus' teaching about the exact same thing, where he said that someone's confession would avail them until salvation ... and then he complets the sentence by saying ... by making sure they don't die before Baptism.  That's what I contend the Catechism teaches also.

But I agree that it's not heresy per se, right now ... since its hasn't been condemned by the Church.

NOW, with that said, and the reason it needs to be banned ASAP ... is that nothing has lead to more undermining of the faith in EENS and the necessity of Baptism than the abuse of this notion.  You can argue it's just an abuse, but this concept is so incredibly prone to abuse, that it can barely escape your lips before people's minds start using it to undermine EENS or find a loophole to EENS.

As is often the case, I believe that we can judge that it's false doctrine by its pernicious fruits, since almost no other concept has led to more wreckage of faith than BoD.  in fact, had there not been BoD, there simply could never have been Vatican II.  If there were no loopholes to EENS, then there's no Vatican II ecclesiology, and all the errors of V2 rest squarely on that BoD-engineered ecclesiology.