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Author Topic: Justification, the BoD of the Catechumen, and Classical "Feeneyism"  (Read 26758 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Justification, the BoD of the Catechumen, and Classical "Feeneyism"
« Reply #25 on: Today at 06:52:06 AM »
Quote from: JoeZ on August 29, 2026, 10:35:40 PM

 BOD is a disbelief in EENS that has been foisted on the Catholic world to somehow make the new ecclesiology of Vatican 2 palatable. BOD is the same damn heresy as V2. Hold one and you hold both.

I hope this helps.

BoD is not a heresy per se, and the way you frame it actually shows that, since you equate it with a disbelief in "EENS," which is the acronym for the Latin phrase translated, "out the Church no salvation."

A strict BoD such as that mentioned in the Roman or Trent Catechism, and as stated in other contemporary explanations of the concept, show how a correct notion of BoD does show a belief (not disbelief) in EENS.

Here's the Catechism and one of those contemporary explanations:


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The Annotation of John 3:5 in the Original Rheims New Testament of 1586

Born again of water.


As no man can enter into this world not have his life and being in the same, except he be born of his carnal parents: 1 no more can a man enter into the life & state of grace which is in Christ, or attain to life everlasting, unless he be born and baptized of water and the Holy Ghost. Whereby we see first, this Sacrament to be called our regeneration or second birth, in respect of our natural and carnal, which was before. Secondly, that this Sacrament consisteth of an external element of water, and internal virtue of the Holy Spirit: wherein it excelleth John's Baptism, which had the external element, but not the spiritual grace. thirdly, that no man can enter into the kingdom of God, nor into the fellowship of Holy Church, without it. Whereby the 2 Pelagians, and Calvinists be condemned, that promise life everlasting to young children that die without Baptism, and all other that think only faith to serve, or the external element of water superfluous or not necessary: our Saviour's words being plain and general. Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, 3 or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remediless necessity could not obtain it. Lastly, it is proved that this Sacrament giveth grace ex opere operato, that is of the work itself (which all Protestants deny) because it so breedeth our spiritual life in God. as our carnal birth giveth the life of the world.

https://thedouayrheims.com/odr/john/3

Catechism of Trent

On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

https://catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml

Orestes Brownson summarized this strict view well:


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It is evident, both from Bellarmine and Billuart, that no one can be saved unless he belongs to the visible communion of the Church, either actually or virtually, and also that the salvation of catechumens can be asserted only because they do so belong ; that is, because they are in the vestibule, for the purpose of entering,  have already entered in their will and proximate disposition. St. Thomas teaches with regard to these, in case they have faith working by love, that all they lack is the reception of the visible sacrament in re ; but if they are prevented by death from receiving it in re before the Church is ready to administer it, that God supplies the defect, accepts the will for the deed, and reputes them to be baptized. If the defect is supplied, and God reputes them to be baptized, they are so in effect, have in effect received the visible sacrament, are truly members of the external communion of the Church, and therefore are saved in it, not out of it. *(footnote: * Summa 3, Q. G8, a. 2. corp. ad 2. et ad 3.)


http://orestesbrownson.org/210.html

Thus, classical BoD speaks of catechumen who have an intention and determination to receive Baptism. They know of the Church, and long to enter here. They see her, and baptism, as the means of salvation, which they long for. Their spiritual identification with the Church is not substituted by some vague desire to do the will of God, as in implicit BoD, but an actual desire to join themselves to the Church of Christ. This is consistent with seeing entry into the Church as the exclusive means of salvation, since both the sacrament and entry into the Church is desired by catechumen. In the also classical formulation of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, quoted by St. Thomas in his Summa:


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The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed" (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57).

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article2

The Pelagian expansion of BoD to an implicit desire to do the will of God removes the exclusivity of entry into the Church for salvation by removing the Church out of the picture totally: it is not in the mind of the person desiring salvation, who is not aware of its existence. In the catechumen, both the Church and the sacrament retain their necessity as the as the vehicle of salvation. Think of it, or analogize it, with the function of thinking, or the concept of an idea. To have an idea of a unicorn, you have to grasp, take hold of, in your mind, the image of a horse with a horn on its head. You can't have the idea of a unicorn by simply desiring to have knowledge of all the legendary animals that have been conceived. That desire is empty, as far as the identity of unicorns goes, and the image of a unicorn is not possessed by the mind. The mind does not take hold of a unicorn by such a general desire. If having an idea or picture in the mind of a unicorn was necessary for salvation, the person with a general desire for all legendary animals would not have it.

But a catechumen, with the desire for entering the Catholic Church and receiving the sacrament of baptism, has taken hold in his mind of the Church and the sacrament necessary for salvation.  It is no departure from reason or sense to believe the salvation of a catechumen who fails of baptism because of some "unforeseen accident" is consistent with a continuing necessity of the Church and the sacrament of baptism for salvation.

The Pelagian expansion of BoD is a sign of the disease, like the lesion on a leper; it is not the cause.

The cause, consistent with Pelagianism, and going back to Eden and the Fall, is man's extravagant sense of his freedom of will and self-determination. It is a rejection of the Catholic dogma of the predestination of the saints. That dogma holds that God chooses, before the salvation of the world, who is to be saved. Man's free will, properly understood as voluntary action and free consent, does not alter that determination. The sinner freely desires his sin as his lord in his "walk . . . according to the flesh,"; the elect freely pursue God's will and desire baptism to be united (or, if baptized as infants, continue to desire to be united) to the Church, receive the sacraments, in their "walk . . . according to the spirit." Romans 8:4. etc.

If you see God determining, you don't contort yourself into a pretzel on the subject of the salvation of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, natives of isolated islands, etc. Reason tells you that if God determines who the elect are, of course He would determine that the elect enter salvation by His chosen means, the Catholic Church and its sacraments. 

But if you reject predestination and see man being determinative of salvation, then you basically have to end up with a Pelagian notion of BoD as available to all who simply "desire to do God's will." You end up where JPII ends up: because man is determinative of his salvation, those with no knowledge of Christ, the Church, the sacraments, have to have a real possibility for salvation via an expanded notion of BoD (though he doesn't reference the concept in the statement):


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Redemptoris Missio


Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All

10. The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that "this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God."19


https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio.html

"Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)”

(Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991, n. 29; L’Osservatore Romano English edition, 1 July 1991, p. III).


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1998/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_aud_09091998_en.html



You see, "it must be made concretely available to all," Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc., without any knowledge of Christ, the Catholic Church, being required. It "must" because every man is free to choose salvation, and the Church and it's sacraments just can't be a bar to that salvation. Man decides, and if some men aren't Catholic, the Church must not be necessary to the decision.

The truth is, God determines the end (who is saved), and how (the means). If you accept that truth, the necessity of the Church and the sacraments fits in with God's plan as the means of grace chosen for the men He has chosen to save.

BoD, the Pelagian expansion, is simply a sign of the disease, a rejection of the truth of God's plan of salvation, and the substitution of that plan with man's newer, better model.












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Online Stubborn

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Re: Justification, the BoD of the Catechumen, and Classical "Feeneyism"
« Reply #26 on: Today at 07:22:54 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on Today at 06:52:06 AM
Here's the Catechism and one of those contemporary explanations:
Here's a Catechism with their contemporary explanation:


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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Justification, the BoD of the Catechumen, and Classical "Feeneyism"
« Reply #27 on: Today at 09:40:20 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 07:22:54 AM
Here's a Catechism with their contemporary explanation:




I meant, contemporary to the Council of Trent - 16th Century.

I'd be shocked if that one were before the late 19th or 20th centuries. 
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Online Stubborn

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Re: Justification, the BoD of the Catechumen, and Classical "Feeneyism"
« Reply #28 on: Today at 01:09:45 PM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on Today at 09:40:20 AM
I meant, contemporary to the Council of Trent - 16th Century.

I'd be shocked if that one were before the late 19th or 20th centuries.
So explain how the idea of a BOD can go from all the saints and catechisms you've been posting, to the catechism I posted. I mean, a catechism is a catechism - no? 

The one I posted is what most trads and trad clergy actually believe - and has been the popular belief for probably the last +100 years. I do not know which catechism the one is that I posted as it is actually copied from a post of a former trad poster here on CI who was an avid defender of a BOD but who is now deceased, although I am pretty sure it's from 1931.

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