III. Infidels, to whom the faith was never preached, are not left without sufficient grace to secure the salvation of their souls. Luther does not hesitate to sentence all infidels Gentiles, Turks, and Jews to eternal hell-fire; and Jansenius is not much more lenient. But the Catholic Church condemned their doctrines. Thus Alexander VIII condemned the proposition: "Pagans, Jews, heretics, and others of this kind, receive no influence what- ever from Christ; hence their will is entirely bare and unarmed, and entirely without sufficient grace " (see also the propositions 26, 27, and 29, condemned by Clement XI.). Pius IX. sums up the teaching of the Church on this point in his Encyclical of August 10, 1863, to the Italian bishops: "It is known to us and to you that they who labour under invincible ignorance of our holy religion, and yet diligently keep the natural law and its precepts written by God in the hearts of all, and are ready to obey God and to lead an honest and righteous life, are enabled by the power of Divine light and grace to obtain eternal life. For God, who plainly beholds, examines and knows the minds and hearts, the thoughts and habits of all, in His sovereign goodness and clemency will not allow that any one suffer eternal punishment who is without the guilt of a wilful sin." The teaching of the Popes is not less in accordance with Scripture than with reason. Christ is the Light of the world that enlightens "all men," and God wills that "all men come into the knowledge of truth" (i Tim. ii. 4). See §45.

The ways by which grace reaches the soul of the infidel are known to God alone. St. Thomas (De Veritate, q. 14, a.11, ad. 1) is certain that the untutored savage, who follows the dictates of his conscience, receives from God, either by an internal revelation or an external messenger, the faith necessary to his salvation. As we live in the supernatural order, we may well hold with Ripalda that every effort to do good proceeding from human nature is accompanied and assisted by some supernatural grace, and thus works for salvation.

CONDEMNATION OF THE ERRORS OF PASCHASIUS QUESNEL
UNIGENITUS (Section 3)

Dogmatic Constitution issued by Pope Clement XI on Sept. 8, 1713.

26. No graces are granted except through faith.
27. Faith is the first grace and the source of all others.
28. The first grace which God grants to the sinner is the remission of sin.
29. Outside of the Church, no grace is granted.

Quote from: CMcQ

The energy spent trying to find an end around EENS would be better spent praying for souls of the dead, rosaries and novenas and having masses said for the repose of their souls.

There's no point in praying for a soul that is lost, and it could be a source of real scandal. If a person must die as a formal member of the Church (baptised, not subject to excommunication, not separated by heresy or schism), then you cannot pray for them as they are certain to be lost.

So why do you suggest this?

Quote from: Pope Pius XII

22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free." [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered -- so the Lord commands -- as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

We don't know if those souls are lost.  It is our job to pray for the dead.

Quote from: Scheeben

III. Infidels, to whom the faith was never preached, are not left without sufficient grace to secure the salvation of their souls. Luther does not hesitate to sentence all infidels Gentiles, Turks, and Jews to eternal hell-fire; and Jansenius is not much more lenient. But the Catholic Church condemned their doctrines. Thus Alexander VIII condemned the proposition: "Pagans, Jews, heretics, and others of this kind, receive no influence what- ever from Christ; hence their will is entirely bare and unarmed, and entirely without sufficient grace " (see also the propositions 26, 27, and 29, condemned by Clement XI.). Pius IX. sums up the teaching of the Church on this point in his Encyclical of August 10, 1863, to the Italian bishops: "It is known to us and to you that they who labour under invincible ignorance of our holy religion, and yet diligently keep the natural law and its precepts written by God in the hearts of all, and are ready to obey God and to lead an honest and righteous life, are enabled by the power of Divine light and grace to obtain eternal life. For God, who plainly beholds, examines and knows the minds and hearts, the thoughts and habits of all, in His sovereign goodness and clemency will not allow that any one suffer eternal punishment who is without the guilt of a wilful sin." The teaching of the Popes is not less in accordance with Scripture than with reason. Christ is the Light of the world that enlightens "all men," and God wills that "all men come into the knowledge of truth" (i Tim. ii. 4). See §45.

The ways by which grace reaches the soul of the infidel are known to God alone. St. Thomas (De Veritate, q. 14, a.11, ad. 1) is certain that the untutored savage, who follows the dictates of his conscience, receives from God, either by an internal revelation or an external messenger, the faith necessary to his salvation. As we live in the supernatural order, we may well hold with Ripalda that every effort to do good proceeding from human nature is accompanied and assisted by some supernatural grace, and thus works for salvation.

Quote

CONDEMNATION OF THE ERRORS OF PASCHASIUS QUESNEL
UNIGENITUS (Section 3)

Dogmatic Constitution issued by Pope Clement XI on Sept. 8, 1713.

26. No graces are granted except through faith.
27. Faith is the first grace and the source of all others.
28. The first grace which God grants to the sinner is the remission of sin.
29. Outside of the Church, no grace is granted.

If you would be so kind as to help me understand;

My understanding is that the Character of baptism is the identifying mark or seal of membership in the Church. I've always thought the greater miracle was the forgiveness of sins and unmerited reward of Heaven and if necessary Providence would provide a minor miracle such as an atypical baptism. With this in mind:
1: Where in these quotes does it say water definitely was never involved in such a one?
2: If it does not explicitly say the above, then what is the progression of reasoning (syllogism) that I can follow to come to the conclusion that water is not necessary to enter the Church.
3: What sort of authority backs up the syllogism?
4: Perhaps there is an authoritative interpretation of the above you could link for me.

Thank you so much for your time and God bless,
JoeZ

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Scheeben

III. Infidels, to whom the faith was never preached, are not left without sufficient grace to secure the salvation of their souls. Luther does not hesitate to sentence all infidels Gentiles, Turks, and Jews to eternal hell-fire; and Jansenius is not much more lenient. But the Catholic Church condemned their doctrines. Thus Alexander VIII condemned the proposition: "Pagans, Jews, heretics, and others of this kind, receive no influence what- ever from Christ; hence their will is entirely bare and unarmed, and entirely without sufficient grace " (see also the propositions 26, 27, and 29, condemned by Clement XI.). Pius IX. sums up the teaching of the Church on this point in his Encyclical of August 10, 1863, to the Italian bishops: "It is known to us and to you that they who labour under invincible ignorance of our holy religion, and yet diligently keep the natural law and its precepts written by God in the hearts of all, and are ready to obey God and to lead an honest and righteous life, are enabled by the power of Divine light and grace to obtain eternal life. For God, who plainly beholds, examines and knows the minds and hearts, the thoughts and habits of all, in His sovereign goodness and clemency will not allow that any one suffer eternal punishment who is without the guilt of a wilful sin." The teaching of the Popes is not less in accordance with Scripture than with reason. Christ is the Light of the world that enlightens "all men," and God wills that "all men come into the knowledge of truth" (i Tim. ii. 4). See §45.

The ways by which grace reaches the soul of the infidel are known to God alone. St. Thomas (De Veritate, q. 14, a.11, ad. 1) is certain that the untutored savage, who follows the dictates of his conscience, receives from God, either by an internal revelation or an external messenger, the faith necessary to his salvation. As we live in the supernatural order, we may well hold with Ripalda that every effort to do good proceeding from human nature is accompanied and assisted by some supernatural grace, and thus works for salvation.

Quote

CONDEMNATION OF THE ERRORS OF PASCHASIUS QUESNEL
UNIGENITUS (Section 3)

Dogmatic Constitution issued by Pope Clement XI on Sept. 8, 1713.

26. No graces are granted except through faith.
27. Faith is the first grace and the source of all others.
28. The first grace which God grants to the sinner is the remission of sin.
29. Outside of the Church, no grace is granted.

If you would be so kind as to help me understand;

My understanding is that the Character of baptism is the identifying mark or seal of membership in the Church. I've always thought the greater miracle was the forgiveness of sins and unmerited reward of Heaven and if necessary Providence would provide a minor miracle such as an atypical baptism. With this in mind:
1: Where in these quotes does it say water definitely was never involved in such a one?

Good question, but there is no place to be found, nor could there be, because then it would deny Scripture and the infallible canons of the sacred councils, so it would be anathema.

2: If it does not explicitly say the above, then what is the progression of reasoning (syllogism) that I can follow to come to the conclusion that water is not necessary to enter the Church.

There is no progression without an erroneous precept, either expressed or implied, for the same reasons as 1 above.

3: What sort of authority backs up the syllogism?

There is no syllogism so no authority is attached to nothing.

4: Perhaps there is an authoritative interpretation of the above you could link for me.

Thank you so much for your time and God bless,
JoeZ

.

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Ambrose

Last I checked Pius XII ruled the Church, and he through the Holy Office told Catholics what to believe.

Yes, the same Pius XII who set the ball rolling on 90% of what ended up in Vatican II, from his episcopal appointments (not a few modernist V2 "Fathers" in the ranks), to his setting up Bugnini and authorizing liturgical experimentation ("Mass of the Future" anyone?), to opening the floodgates on evolution, to opening the floodgates on Natural Birth Control, to opening the floodgates on ecuмenism (Fastiggi in the Sanborn debate points to the fact that Pius XII approved several ecuмenical conferences and gatherings which were entirely like their V2 counterparts), to opening the floodgates on religious indifferentism and the denial of EENS.

Pius XII also refused to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

His was THE watershed papacy that led right up into Vatican II.  Stop this silly papalatry that would have us believe that Pius XII was some kind of inspired oracle from God.

Wow.  According to you, Pius XII did more harm than good.  With this much heresy and error, would you consider Pius XII an anti-pope?  If he was the one that opened the floodgates of VII wouldn't you have to include him among the anti-popes?

The people that think this way against our late beloved Pope Pius XII have allowed themselves to be duped by baseless propaganda.  

Pius XII was the obstacle that was preventing the heretics from making their move against the Church.  So long as he lived, there was peace in the Church, and the enemies from within were prevented from unleashing their evil schemes.  

Quote from: Ambrose

Last I checked Pius XII ruled the Church, and he through the Holy Office told Catholics what to believe.

...to opening the floodgates on evolution,

I bet if he had lived up till now he would have condemned it a long time ago.

...to opening the floodgates on ecuмenism (Fastiggi in the Sanborn debate points to the fact that Pius XII approved several ecuмenical conferences and gatherings which were entirely like their V2 counterparts),

Which ones? When? Where?

non-members are outside the Church.

No, not necessarily, if they meet the conditions of Baptism of Desire, they are then united through BoD.

Are they of the body? Are they part of the Church or just inside the Church?

What does united mean?

Neil,

When was the internet declared a proper noun?  Was it in a new edition of the Oxford Dictionary?  If so, I missed the event.  I do see how it could be seen that way through common use.  Hey, at least I didn't call it the "internets" -  :wink:  

More importantly, it is the job of missionaries to get the word to those who are considered savages.  But, it is also the responsibility of those savages to respond.  Our Lord told the apostles that those who do not believe are condemned already so if they were told then they were told.  

Perhaps Invincible Ignorance does apply to these men in the woods but why do we jump to this conclusion?  Why did the Gospel not reach them?  Were they spiritually unreachable?  Don't these backwoods types notoriously rely on their superstitions?  It's so, isn't it?  They often engage in animal sacrifices and even human sacrifices so how noble are they really?  

I juxtapose that with the parable of the ten virgins.  Those five unfortunate virgins remained pure but only forgot to bring enough oil for their lamps.  That means they didn't prepare but they did everything else - even doubling the trip.  Those five unwise virgins lived pure and died pure but they died unprepared although they did work harder than the five wise virgins.  And what response did they receive?  We all know.