Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 13500 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #315 on: August 11, 2017, 01:54:04 PM »
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  • First we have got to get this first item straight - please correct me if I have this wrong.........Even though YOU KNOW that there are no "theological experts and duly appointed authorities [who] make that claim" that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible", are you saying that YOU are *not* going to stop saying that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible" even though you cannot provide any scenario whatsoever wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual?

    Because you have never given me any scenario, we must therefore conclude that that is not taught by any expert or authority and is most certainly not only not a teaching of the Church, it is blasphemous statement against the sacrament and God in His Providence.

    As such, don't you think you should either admit that whole idea is entirely false - or provide a scenario wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual?


       

     
    With the literal VOLUMES of irrelevancies posted, and the hours(?) spent in "back-n-forth"… it's like the master criminal who could be a millionaire legitimately if he put in a fraction of the effort he does "getting over"
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #316 on: August 11, 2017, 01:55:36 PM »
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  • St. Augustine, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th-5th Century): The Seven Books of Augustin, Bishop of Hippo, On Baptism, Against the Donatists, Book IV, Ch 22: "That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by martyrdom is supported by an argument by no means trivial, which the blessed Cyprian adduces from the thief, to whom, though he was not baptized, it was yet said, "To-day shall thou be with me in Paradise." On considering which, again and again, I find that not only martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply what was wanting of baptism, but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse may not be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism for want of time. For neither was that thief crucified for the name of Christ, but as the reward of his own deeds; nor did he suffer because he believed, but he believed while suffering. It was shown, therefore, in the case of that thief, how great is the power even without the visible sacrament of baptism, of what the apostle says, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." But the want is supplied invisibly only when the administration of baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment."
    Ch23: "But as in the thief, to whom the material administration of the sacrament was necessarily wanting, the salvation was complete, because it was spiritually present through his piety, so, when the sacrament itself is present, salvation is complete, if what the thief possessed be unavoidably wanting."
    Ch24: "And as in the thief the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism, because it had been missing not from pride or contempt, but from want of opportunity..."
    Ch25: "By all these considerations it is proved that the sacrament of baptism is one thing, the conversion of the heart another; but that man's salvation is made complete through the two together. Nor are we to suppose that, if one of these be wanting, it necessarily follows that the other is wanting also; because the sacrament may exist in the infant without the conversion of the heart; and this was found to be possible without the sacrament in the case of the thief, God in either case filling up what was involuntarily wanting. But when either of these requisites is wanting intentionally, then the man is responsible for the omission. And baptism may exist when the conversion of the heart is wanting; but, with respect to such conversion, it may indeed be found when baptism has not been received, but never when it has been despised."

    From City of God, Book XIII, Chapter 7: "Of the Death Which the Unbaptized Suffer for the Confession of Christ: For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, "Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," John 3:5 made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven;" Matthew 10:32 and in another place, "Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it." Matthew 16:25"

    A Treatise on the Soul and Its Origin, Book II, Ch17, Disobedient Compassion and Compassionate Disobedience Reprobated and Martyrdom In Lieu Of Baptism: "Truth, by the mouth of Itself incarnate, proclaims as if in a voice of thunder: "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." And in order to except martyrs from this sentence, to whose lot it has fallen to be slain for the name of Christ before being washed in the baptism of Christ, He says in another passage, "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

    A Treatise On the Soul and Its Origin, by Aurelius Augustin, Bishop of Hippo; In Four Books, 419, Book 1, CH 11, Title Of Chapter 11: "Martyrdom for Christ Supplies the Place of Baptism. The Faith of the Thief Who Was Crucified Along with Christ Taken As Martyrdom And Hence for Baptism".

     On the Soul and Its Origin, Book 1, Ch 10: "Moreover, from the time when He said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven;" and again, "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it; " no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ, or death for Christ."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #317 on: August 12, 2017, 07:51:12 PM »
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  • Again, the request was simple, please provide a Church reference that explicitly condemns Baptism of Desire.

    Explicit Church teaching, no conjecture, no reasoning, no appeals, just a reference where the Church condemns Baptism of Desire.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #318 on: August 13, 2017, 05:25:47 PM »
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  • Again, the request was simple, please provide a Church reference that explicitly condemns Baptism of Desire.

    Explicit Church teaching, no conjecture, no reasoning, no appeals, just a reference where the Church condemns Baptism of Desire.

    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #319 on: August 13, 2017, 09:03:28 PM »
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  • Is say, pretty clearly, that condemns BOD.  And no quote from ANY saint or pope can outweigh a council. 


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #320 on: August 13, 2017, 11:44:29 PM »
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  • Is say, pretty clearly, that condemns BOD.  And no quote from ANY saint or pope can outweigh a council.
    With all due, yes water is the matter of the sacrament. So what? Also, even granting this means what you seem to think, how would it be a direct and explicit condemnation?

    To be fair, his demands seem arbitrary,  red-herring irrelevant, and dishonestly constrictive. At least he didn't demand we "stand and deliver" on a second Monday in a leap year in the form of a haiku…

    That said, you could puppet a demo of his lot's hypocrisy and snake-tongued standards by putting him on the gallows of his own standards, like asking for express condemnations of what he hates yet don't exist.

    TL;DR: big fat "so what?" all round.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #321 on: August 14, 2017, 09:04:44 AM »
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  • CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    Yes, I agree, this Canon very clearly identifies that water is necessary for a baptism.  No one is saying anything contrary to this.  But this is in no way contradicts the Church's teaching on Baptism of Desire.  I simply asked for an explicit Church condemnation of Baptism of Desire (because I honestly don't believe one exists).  In my experience, the Church has repeatedly taught Baptism of Desire.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #322 on: August 14, 2017, 09:11:18 AM »
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  • Again, the request was simple, please provide a Church reference that explicitly condemns Baptism of Desire.

    Explicit Church teaching, no conjecture, no reasoning, no appeals, just a reference where the Church condemns Baptism of Desire.
    They can't but won't grant the point because they don't want the Church of Feeney to be proven wrong. There is a reference by a sainted Doctor of the Church that teaches BOD is de fide.  Of course the feeneyites are so bent on their heresy they won't make the logical deduction.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #323 on: August 14, 2017, 09:17:02 AM »
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  • Yes, I agree, this Canon very clearly identifies that water is necessary for a baptism.  No one is saying anything contrary to this.  But this is in no way contradicts the Church's teaching on Baptism of Desire.  I simply asked for an explicit Church condemnation of Baptism of Desire (because I honestly don't believe one exists).  In my experience, the Church has repeatedly taught Baptism of Desire.
    There is no explicit decree condemning a BOD by name, nor has an explicit condemnation of a BOD ever been needed. The Church has very good reasons for this, none of which I expect avid BODers to accept, because if they could accept such reasons, they would not be asking for a condemnation explicitly naming a BOD in the first place.  
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #324 on: August 14, 2017, 09:40:18 AM »
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  • There is no explicit decree condemning a BOD by name, nor has an explicit condemnation of a BOD ever been needed. The Church has very good reasons for this, none of which I expect avid BODers to accept, because if they could accept such reasons, they would not be asking for a condemnation explicitly naming a BOD in the first place.  
    ???
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #325 on: August 14, 2017, 09:46:34 AM »
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  • The Church doesn't have time to condemn every error in the world, thus She teaches what one MUST believe.  Logically, if something doesn't fall into the parameters (or contradicts) what one MUST believe, it is error.  It could be innocent error, or it could be purposeful heresy.  The intention is irrelevant; it's still error.

    Baptism is required for heaven  (article of faith)
    Baptism = water + Holy Ghost  (article of faith)
    BOD = no water + Holy Ghost*  
    Ergo, BOD is not Baptism and cannot get one to heaven.

    The only thing BOD can provide a soul is sanctifying grace  (per Trent); it cannot provide heaven  (logical conclusion).

    *Theoretically.


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #326 on: August 14, 2017, 10:43:27 AM »
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  • They can't but won't grant the point because they don't want the Church of Feeney to be proven wrong. There is a reference by a sainted Doctor of the Church that teaches BOD is de fide.  Of course the feeneyites are so bent on their heresy they won't make the logical deduction. 
    "Absence of evidence is PROOF of absence" Lover of Lies
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #327 on: August 14, 2017, 10:56:04 AM »
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  • There is no explicit decree condemning a BOD by name, nor has an explicit condemnation of a BOD ever been needed. The Church has very good reasons for this, none of which I expect avid BODers to accept, because if they could accept such reasons, they would not be asking for a condemnation explicitly naming a BOD in the first place. 
    Pretty much crapcans things like moral theology and moral philosophy. "It isn't expressly verboten, .^. 'game on'!"

    Sad to say,  this is something my country in particular not only fall for hook, line and sinker, but push like crack till it interferes with us, then we find WMDs or any other excuse to kill things to the lizards. "And the drones played on…"
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #328 on: August 14, 2017, 11:00:12 AM »
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  • The Church doesn't have time to condemn every error in the world, thus She teaches what one MUST believe.  Logically, if something doesn't fall into the parameters (or contradicts) what one MUST believe, it is error.  It could be innocent error, or it could be purposeful heresy.  The intention is irrelevant; it's still error.

    Baptism is required for heaven  (article of faith)
    Baptism = water + Holy Ghost  (article of faith)
    BOD = no water + Holy Ghost*  
    Ergo, BOD is not Baptism and cannot get one to heaven.

    The only thing BOD can provide a soul is sanctifying grace  (per Trent); it cannot provide heaven  (logical conclusion).

    *Theoretically.
    What hat did you hat did you pull that from?  The logical conclusion and dogmatic fact and that one in a state of sanctifying grace goes to heaven.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #329 on: August 14, 2017, 11:19:14 AM »
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  • What hat did you hat did you pull that from?  The logical conclusion and dogmatic fact and that one in a state of sanctifying grace goes to heaven.
    (@@)
    "Lord, have mercy".

     

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