Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 12541 times)

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Online DZ PLEASE

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #315 on: August 11, 2017, 01:19:06 PM »
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  • Circular reasoning.  The duly appointed authorities do not play games with God.  They do not temp the Lord teaching it is dogma that God baptizes people with water when baptism would otherwise be impossible. 

    Show me where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.

    Request for demonstration = "circular reasoning." Apparently you can "make this stuff up"

    Dogma saying what God WILL or WON'T do conflated with CAN or CAN'T. / framing the will of God as a PRIVATION of His power ie AS AN EVIL.

    "This is your brain on heresy"

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #316 on: August 11, 2017, 01:21:12 PM »
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  • "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" 

    Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-97: "Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato… Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view is at least temerarious."

    On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."


    Which part do you disagree with?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #317 on: August 11, 2017, 01:39:30 PM »
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  • "This is your brain on heresy"  :jester:

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #318 on: August 11, 2017, 01:43:03 PM »
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  • Circular reasoning.  The duly appointed authorities do not play games with God.  They do not temp the Lord teaching it is dogma that God baptizes people with water when baptism would otherwise be impossible.  

    Show me where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.
    First we have got to get this first item straight - please correct me if I have this wrong.........Even though YOU KNOW that there are no "theological experts and duly appointed authorities [who] make that claim" that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible", are you saying that YOU are *not* going to stop saying that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible" even though you cannot provide any scenario whatsoever wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual?

    Because you have never given me any scenario, we must therefore conclude that that is not taught by any expert or authority and is most certainly not only not a teaching of the Church, it is blasphemous statement against the sacrament and God in His Providence.

    As such, don't you think you should either admit that whole idea is entirely false - or provide a scenario wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual?


      

     



    Do not be afraid to abandon yourself unreservedly to His loving Providence, for a child cannot perish in the arms of a Father Who is omnipotent.

    St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #319 on: August 11, 2017, 01:46:54 PM »
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  • Quote
    Show me where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.
    This is possible, per Trent's teaching on justification.

    You should be asking the question:  "Show me where it is impossible for God to baptise someone apart from water."

    Ahhhhh!  Now THAT is impossible, because God ordained the rules of baptism and the Church clearly teaches these rules and She has never said He will depart from them.  Water = necessary.  As Fr Wathen points out - When Justification cleanses the soul from sin, that soul is free from guilt in the eyes of God.  But they haven't received baptism, so they are not His child, they are not heirs to heaven, they are not members in the Church, therefore if they die justified but unbaptized they will go to Limbo!  A justified person MUST still be baptised to get to heaven!


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #320 on: August 11, 2017, 01:49:44 PM »
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  • St. Ambrose, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th Century): From his writing "De obitu Valentiniani consolatio": "But I hear that you are distressed because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me, what attribute do we have besides our will, our intention? Yet, a short time ago he had this desire that before he came to Italy he should be initiated [baptized], and he indicated that he wanted to be baptized as soon as possible by myself. Did he not, therefore, have that grace which he desired? Did he not have what he asked for? Undoubtedly because he asked for it he received it."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online DZ PLEASE

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #321 on: August 11, 2017, 01:54:04 PM »
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  • First we have got to get this first item straight - please correct me if I have this wrong.........Even though YOU KNOW that there are no "theological experts and duly appointed authorities [who] make that claim" that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible", are you saying that YOU are *not* going to stop saying that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible" even though you cannot provide any scenario whatsoever wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual?

    Because you have never given me any scenario, we must therefore conclude that that is not taught by any expert or authority and is most certainly not only not a teaching of the Church, it is blasphemous statement against the sacrament and God in His Providence.

    As such, don't you think you should either admit that whole idea is entirely false - or provide a scenario wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual?


       

     
    With the literal VOLUMES of irrelevancies posted, and the hours(?) spent in "back-n-forth"… it's like the master criminal who could be a millionaire legitimately if he put in a fraction of the effort he does "getting over"

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #322 on: August 11, 2017, 01:55:36 PM »
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  • St. Augustine, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th-5th Century): The Seven Books of Augustin, Bishop of Hippo, On Baptism, Against the Donatists, Book IV, Ch 22: "That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by martyrdom is supported by an argument by no means trivial, which the blessed Cyprian adduces from the thief, to whom, though he was not baptized, it was yet said, "To-day shall thou be with me in Paradise." On considering which, again and again, I find that not only martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply what was wanting of baptism, but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse may not be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism for want of time. For neither was that thief crucified for the name of Christ, but as the reward of his own deeds; nor did he suffer because he believed, but he believed while suffering. It was shown, therefore, in the case of that thief, how great is the power even without the visible sacrament of baptism, of what the apostle says, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." But the want is supplied invisibly only when the administration of baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment."
    Ch23: "But as in the thief, to whom the material administration of the sacrament was necessarily wanting, the salvation was complete, because it was spiritually present through his piety, so, when the sacrament itself is present, salvation is complete, if what the thief possessed be unavoidably wanting."
    Ch24: "And as in the thief the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism, because it had been missing not from pride or contempt, but from want of opportunity..."
    Ch25: "By all these considerations it is proved that the sacrament of baptism is one thing, the conversion of the heart another; but that man's salvation is made complete through the two together. Nor are we to suppose that, if one of these be wanting, it necessarily follows that the other is wanting also; because the sacrament may exist in the infant without the conversion of the heart; and this was found to be possible without the sacrament in the case of the thief, God in either case filling up what was involuntarily wanting. But when either of these requisites is wanting intentionally, then the man is responsible for the omission. And baptism may exist when the conversion of the heart is wanting; but, with respect to such conversion, it may indeed be found when baptism has not been received, but never when it has been despised."

    From City of God, Book XIII, Chapter 7: "Of the Death Which the Unbaptized Suffer for the Confession of Christ: For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, "Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," John 3:5 made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven;" Matthew 10:32 and in another place, "Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it." Matthew 16:25"

    A Treatise on the Soul and Its Origin, Book II, Ch17, Disobedient Compassion and Compassionate Disobedience Reprobated and Martyrdom In Lieu Of Baptism: "Truth, by the mouth of Itself incarnate, proclaims as if in a voice of thunder: "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." And in order to except martyrs from this sentence, to whose lot it has fallen to be slain for the name of Christ before being washed in the baptism of Christ, He says in another passage, "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

    A Treatise On the Soul and Its Origin, by Aurelius Augustin, Bishop of Hippo; In Four Books, 419, Book 1, CH 11, Title Of Chapter 11: "Martyrdom for Christ Supplies the Place of Baptism. The Faith of the Thief Who Was Crucified Along with Christ Taken As Martyrdom And Hence for Baptism".

     On the Soul and Its Origin, Book 1, Ch 10: "Moreover, from the time when He said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven;" and again, "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it; " no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ, or death for Christ."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #323 on: August 12, 2017, 07:51:12 PM »
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  • Again, the request was simple, please provide a Church reference that explicitly condemns Baptism of Desire.

    Explicit Church teaching, no conjecture, no reasoning, no appeals, just a reference where the Church condemns Baptism of Desire.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #324 on: August 13, 2017, 05:25:47 PM »
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  • Again, the request was simple, please provide a Church reference that explicitly condemns Baptism of Desire.

    Explicit Church teaching, no conjecture, no reasoning, no appeals, just a reference where the Church condemns Baptism of Desire.

    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    Do not be afraid to abandon yourself unreservedly to His loving Providence, for a child cannot perish in the arms of a Father Who is omnipotent.

    St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #325 on: August 13, 2017, 09:03:28 PM »
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  • Is say, pretty clearly, that condemns BOD.  And no quote from ANY saint or pope can outweigh a council. 


    Online DZ PLEASE

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #326 on: August 13, 2017, 11:44:29 PM »
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  • Is say, pretty clearly, that condemns BOD.  And no quote from ANY saint or pope can outweigh a council.
    With all due, yes water is the matter of the sacrament. So what? Also, even granting this means what you seem to think, how would it be a direct and explicit condemnation?

    To be fair, his demands seem arbitrary,  red-herring irrelevant, and dishonestly constrictive. At least he didn't demand we "stand and deliver" on a second Monday in a leap year in the form of a haiku…

    That said, you could puppet a demo of his lot's hypocrisy and snake-tongued standards by putting him on the gallows of his own standards, like asking for express condemnations of what he hates yet don't exist.

    TL;DR: big fat "so what?" all round.

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #327 on: August 14, 2017, 09:04:44 AM »
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  • CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    Yes, I agree, this Canon very clearly identifies that water is necessary for a baptism.  No one is saying anything contrary to this.  But this is in no way contradicts the Church's teaching on Baptism of Desire.  I simply asked for an explicit Church condemnation of Baptism of Desire (because I honestly don't believe one exists).  In my experience, the Church has repeatedly taught Baptism of Desire.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #328 on: August 14, 2017, 09:11:18 AM »
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  • Again, the request was simple, please provide a Church reference that explicitly condemns Baptism of Desire.

    Explicit Church teaching, no conjecture, no reasoning, no appeals, just a reference where the Church condemns Baptism of Desire.
    They can't but won't grant the point because they don't want the Church of Feeney to be proven wrong. There is a reference by a sainted Doctor of the Church that teaches BOD is de fide.  Of course the feeneyites are so bent on their heresy they won't make the logical deduction.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John 3:5
    « Reply #329 on: August 14, 2017, 09:17:02 AM »
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  • Yes, I agree, this Canon very clearly identifies that water is necessary for a baptism.  No one is saying anything contrary to this.  But this is in no way contradicts the Church's teaching on Baptism of Desire.  I simply asked for an explicit Church condemnation of Baptism of Desire (because I honestly don't believe one exists).  In my experience, the Church has repeatedly taught Baptism of Desire.
    There is no explicit decree condemning a BOD by name, nor has an explicit condemnation of a BOD ever been needed. The Church has very good reasons for this, none of which I expect avid BODers to accept, because if they could accept such reasons, they would not be asking for a condemnation explicitly naming a BOD in the first place.  
    Do not be afraid to abandon yourself unreservedly to His loving Providence, for a child cannot perish in the arms of a Father Who is omnipotent.

    St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

     

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