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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 34664 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #280 on: August 11, 2017, 09:27:49 AM »
Pope Innocent's quote is fallible, because he was speaking as a fallible pope.  The pope is only infallible when he speaks with his APOSTOLIC authority, on faith and morals, when he intends to teach and bind the whole church to believe an article of faith.  Outside of this, he speaks as a fallible bishop.

The authority of "augustine and ambrose" can't be compared to the authority of the Council of Florence/Trent.  Also, as has been pointed out, St Augustine waffled on his opinion in this matter.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #281 on: August 11, 2017, 09:29:47 AM »
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Is the word "justification" the same word as "baptism"?  Is the phrase "justification by desire" the same as "baptism of desire"?  Unless I missed the English class where these two words are the same, just spelled differwntly, then it must mean they are DIFFERENT!

Trent used the word "baptism" multiple times.  If justification means the same as baptism, then why didn't they just say "baptism by desire"?  Have you ever asked yourself this question?

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Where were you when Bellarmine and Liguori needed you?

....why can't you just answer the question?  If you don't know, you don't know.  That's an honest reply.
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #282 on: August 11, 2017, 09:34:43 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 11, 2017, 09:26:26 AM
Elaborate on this or stop making this claim already.

Describe a circuмstance wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual.
The theological experts and duly appointed authorities make the claim.  Catholics sit at their feet and learn.  Prideful heretics call them heretics.  

It is impossible when a catechumen dies before receiving it for instance as one can not get baptized after having died.  
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #283 on: August 11, 2017, 09:35:35 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 11, 2017, 09:29:47 AM
....why can't you just answer the question?  If you don't know, you don't know.  That's an honest reply.
Because it has been answered by the experts.  Why would you prefer my answer?
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #284 on: August 11, 2017, 09:36:46 AM »
Did the following not answer the question for you?  If not please clarify when still needs answering:

St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (18th century): Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96:

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"Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" 

 Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-97: "Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato… Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view is at least temerarious."

On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."
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