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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 34260 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #255 on: August 10, 2017, 02:47:42 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 10, 2017, 02:36:18 PM
You say that a soul must possess supernatural faith and charity BEFORE receiving BOD from God.  How is it possible for a person in original and/or mortal sin to have SUPERNATURAL grace?  Or faith?  or charity?  This is not catholic.
Are you willing to be instructed by the dogmatic manual of a real Catholic theologian. If not, I will have to move on because then you surely won’t be instructed by me.  Please let me know if you would like to discuss further.  I believe I have given you an answer to the questions.  
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #256 on: August 10, 2017, 03:14:44 PM »
Quote
Are you willing to be instructed by the dogmatic manual of a real Catholic theologian.
No theologian has a dogmatic manual that must be followed, under pain of sin.

Quote
I will have to move on because then you surely won’t be instructed by me.
Are you admitting that some of your explanations could be wrong?  I'm not saying that your general view is wrong, but your explanation of it, could be wrong, since you're not a theologian?
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #257 on: August 11, 2017, 05:00:22 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 10, 2017, 02:44:10 PM
You didn't answer the question.  How does one have supernatural faith BEFORE baptism.

Your response:  Babies receive supernatural faith AFTER baptism.

????????
I mentioned to babies as why you have the idea that baptism is the only way one can receive supernatural faith.  Catechumens also have it.
For the third time:
Babies have the three theological infused in them by Baptism.  Did the adults who converted to Faith have Faith before they were baptized?  

By grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; for it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man may glory.  Saint Paul

A potential convert (a potential convert that has not been baptized yet) can receive supernatural faith through God revealing i.e. through the Catholic Church or some miracle. 
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #258 on: August 11, 2017, 05:02:57 AM »
Quote from: An even Seven on August 10, 2017, 09:24:44 PM

When has the Church ever said that we need other men to explain Papal pronouncements to us? The Church has said that the pronouncements themselves are the final explanation.
St. Francis De Sales (Doctor of the Church), The Catholic Controversy, c. 1602, p. 228: “The Councils… decide and define some article.  If after all this another test has to be tried before their [the Council’s] determination is received, will not another also be wanted?  Who will not want to apply his test, and whenever will the matter be settled?... And why not a third to know if the second is faithful? – and then a fourth, to test the third?  Everything must be done over again, and posterity will never trust antiquity but will go ever turning upside down the holiest articles of faith in the wheel of their understandings… what we say is that when a Council has applied this test, our brains have not now to revise but to believe.”
The Council of Trent even tells us that the teaching of the Councils are what we are to understand and the Canons contained therein are for everybody, all the faithful, to make use of as the RULE OF FAITH!
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Sess. 13, Chap. 4: “These are the matters which in general it seemed well to the sacred Council to teach to the faithful of Christ regarding the sacrament of order.  It has, however, resolved to condemn the contrary in definite and appropriate canons in the following manner, so that all, making use of the rule of faith, with the assistance of Christ, may be able to recognize more easily the Catholic truth in the midst of the darkness of so many errors.”
This makes the canon on the Sacrament of Baptism for all the faithful to understand, not to be interpreted or watered down to mean something it does not.
Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

This is not true. The Church's teaching on the necessity for water Baptism for salvation has been proven from sources of authority. He has no regard for the authority of the Magisterium. Instead, he appeals to men for his "faith". LOT's belief that the pronouncements of the Church need to be further "explained" by Church men so that we can "truly" have the real "understanding" of the Dogma is indeed a novelty.

quotes from MHFM site
This is the we can all go it alone on our own protestant mentality.  It leads some to be 100% sure that the universal salvation heresy is Catholic truth and others to be 100% sure that the the no salvation apart from water heresy is Catholic truth.  This should be obvious.  But of course it isn't.  Trusting your own intellect or 21st century lay brothers over the Doctors of the Church doesn't work.  It would be good if you get this before you die.
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #259 on: August 11, 2017, 05:27:42 AM »
Quote from: An even Seven on August 11, 2017, 05:18:08 AM
So in other words you deny what St. Francis de Sales and the Council of Trent says regarding Dogma.

I trust my intellect to understand that Trent tells us that ALL can use the Council's teaching and canons as the rule of faith. That's the Councils intellect that I am trusting. What else could they mean by the words "so that all, making use of the rule of faith, with the assistance of Christ, may be able to recognize more easily the Catholic truth in the midst of the darkness of so many errors"?

What makes you so sure that Saints, Theologians etc... are correct, after all they are men, they do not define Dogma. They are not our rule of faith. Who is there for you to interpret what the Theologians are teaching? This is exactly what St. Francis is telling us.


Trusting Theologians etc... over Dogma are what led to V2 and this crisis. Dogma is how we know that V2 is heresy.
 
You are putting words in my mouth.  I trust the combined consensus of the theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors, Popes and Council of Trent on the issue of 21st century lay bloggers as would Saint Francis de Sales.  Once upon a time this would be the rather obvious thing to do for the sane individual.
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