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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 34306 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #235 on: August 10, 2017, 01:54:22 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 10, 2017, 01:29:38 PM
Original Sin prevents one from obtaining the Beatific Vision.  But one does not suffer the pain of sense eternally if one is not guilty of mortal sin.  I believe Ladislaus would tell you that though I'm not sure.  

Yes, LoT added the qualifier regarding "pain of sense".  This qualifier is also the key to the proper understanding of the misinterpreted Pius IX passage.  Original Sin entails the pain of loss; only actual sin merits pain of sense.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #236 on: August 10, 2017, 01:56:02 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 10, 2017, 01:24:26 PM
Remember the sacrament is established as necessary with a relative necessity of means which means it or its replacements are absolutely necessary for salvation to be possible.

This distinction is irrelevant here.  As I've said repeatedly, the question is not whether God CAN accomplish this without the Sacrament but whether he actually DOES accomplish this without the Sacrament.  So this distinction is moot.
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #237 on: August 10, 2017, 01:57:06 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 10, 2017, 01:52:34 PM
There's no such thing as Baptism being impossible, not even with your new qualifier "apart from some physical miracle".  God needn't work a physical miracle.  God is quite capable of arranging circuŠ¼stances in such a way that the souls would receive Baptism.

Really, the only explanation for this is that God wants some people to be saved but does not want to give them the Baptismal character.  Why would God want to do this?
What cleanses the soul of Original Sin?  God or water?  I accept what the Church teaches.  It seems you disagree just to disagree.  The Fathers, Doctors, Saint, Popes and theologians are more qualified than you to speak to the issue.  Do you at least admit this?  Do you deny Baptism of Blood?  Why didn't God just do a physical miracle and baptism them with water first?
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #238 on: August 10, 2017, 01:57:45 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 10, 2017, 01:54:22 PM
Yes, LoT added the qualifier regarding "pain of sense".  This qualifier is also the key to the proper understanding of the misinterpreted Pius IX passage.  Original Sin entails the pain of loss; only actual sin merits pain of sense.
Agreed.  Did you think you were disagreeing with me above?
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #239 on: August 10, 2017, 01:59:18 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 10, 2017, 01:56:02 PM
This distinction is irrelevant here.  As I've said repeatedly, the question is not whether God CAN accomplish this without the Sacrament but whether he actually DOES accomplish this without the Sacrament.  So this distinction is moot.
As "you" have said repeatedly.  Please understand, and don't take offence.  I don't go by "you".  I go by the theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes. The distinction is essential in understanding the aforementioned on this particular topic.
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