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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 34309 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #230 on: August 10, 2017, 01:16:27 PM »
So, how does one receive the supernatural gift of faith, which he gets from the church, if he doesn't know about the church?

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #231 on: August 10, 2017, 01:24:14 PM »
Quote
One is condemned to the pain of sense in Hell for ever only when one is guilty of mortal sin.
Was this a typo?  This is surely wrong.  For we all are born with original sin, which is enough to keep us from heaven.


Re: John 3:5
« Reply #232 on: August 10, 2017, 01:24:26 PM »
I don't think you realize this, but what you are saying is that God specifically denies the sincere, dying soul, the requisite (of the sacrament of baptism) which He Himself established as necessary for our salvation. You are further saying this denial of God providing the sacrament to the sincere soul occurs due to the person's own ignorance of the necessity of being baptized and belonging to the Catholic Church, which requisite God also established but denied him ("through no fault of his own"), is dogma.

In short, what you are saying is God specifically denies providing the sacrament and the faith to the "ignorant penitent"(?) and that this is dogma. However, you say it in a whole different way, you say the person is not culpable for being ignorant of the necessity of the faith, so God accepts his ignorance and lets the person into heaven even though he never had the faith nor ever received the sacrament.

There is no possible way I can accept this because it wholly contradicts fundamental Catholic teachings and defined dogma which explicitly states that both the faith and the sacrament are necessary for salvation.
 
Actually my friend this is what you are pretty much saying.  I can see you do not lack the intellectual skills to accept the teaching and the various distinctions and nuances it entails.  

What you are saying is that God denies the sincere soul, not guilty of mortal sin, the sanctifying grace necessary through baptism of the Holy Ghost (BOD) when physical baptism is impossible apart from some physical miracle.  

Remember the sacrament is established as necessary with a relative necessity of means which means it or its replacements are absolutely necessary for salvation to be possible.  It is not a choice of whether one wants sacramental baptism or decides he would rather just desire it.  The baptism of the Holy Ghost can only take effect when sacramental baptism is impossible and the other requisites are present.  I do not see how this could be a common or frequent thing.  Their salvation is not secure as those who have infallible teaching, salvific disciplines and sanctifying sacraments available to them. But they can be saved and will be if they die in a state of sanctifying grace.  

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #233 on: August 10, 2017, 01:29:38 PM »
Was this a typo?  This is surely wrong.  For we all are born with original sin, which is enough to keep us from heaven.
Yes, those who do not reach the age of reason from a mental perspective will not go to heaven apart from sacramental baptism.  And Limbo is technically Hell though that is offensive to modern ears.  Limbo has no pain of sense and is in fact a perfect state of natural happiness.  Better to exist and go to Limbo than not to exist at all.  Better not to exist at all then to go to Hell.  

But my quote was not a typo as one is condemned to the pain of sense only when one is guilty of mortal sin.  

Original Sin prevents one from obtaining the Beatific Vision.  But one does not suffer the pain of sense eternally if one is not guilty of mortal sin.  I believe Ladislaus would tell you that though I'm not sure.  

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #234 on: August 10, 2017, 01:52:34 PM »
What you are saying is that God denies the sincere soul, not guilty of mortal sin, the sanctifying grace necessary through baptism of the Holy Ghost (BOD) when physical baptism is impossible apart from some physical miracle.  

There's no such thing as Baptism being impossible, not even with your new qualifier "apart from some physical miracle".  God needn't work a physical miracle.  God is quite capable of arranging circuмstances in such a way that the souls would receive Baptism.

Really, the only explanation for this is that God wants some people to be saved but does not want to give them the Baptismal character.  Why would God want to do this?