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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 35297 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #215 on: August 10, 2017, 12:09:35 PM »
Is an "imperfect" "member" saved "imperfectly"?  

It is not about people who believe people can be saved by desiring Baptism.  It is about believing that people can be saved apart from water when baptism is impossible.  Let us discuss the issue instead of putting words in each others mouth shall we?  

My point is that your argument from the (disputed) position that non-members can be saved is invalid.  That position was in fact adopted to EXPLAIN (after the fact) why salvation is possible without actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.  So it's circular.


Re: John 3:5
« Reply #216 on: August 10, 2017, 12:12:25 PM »
Again, you continue to gratuitously assert this ... as if it were proof for your distinction.  What we're saying is that this is a false distinction, that there's no such thing as being within the Church while not being a member.  This is precisely the "undigested hamburger" soteriology that I reject out of hand as preposterious ... because it leads to a view of the Church where the body and soul are not co-extensive.

But you just keep repeating this ad nauseam as if it were fact, and then use this distinction to prove that non-members of the Church can be saved (because they're "within" the Church).  In fact, you make this up precisely in order to say that you do not reject the dogma that there's no salvation except "within" the Church by saying that non-members can be "within" it.  But it's a totally circular argument based on your premise that the unbaptized can be saved.  But even with the BoDer camp, not all people say that non-members can be saved; some say that these peoples ARE members, either in voto or "imperfectly".
Your tone is condescending. You are accusing me of what you are guilty of.  You are not showing me any supportive evidence this makes verifies what I have stated about many feeneyites.

1.  The overcompensate for their error which the my subconsciously fear may be wrong by calling people names and making false accusations.

2.  They do not use supporting evidence to support their novelty.

3.  They reason they do not support their novelty is because they trust their own intellects more than they trust the authorized theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctor and Popes.

Last chance to be civil or I'll start quoting the authorities for the sake of anyone watching the thread in the hopes that truth will be provided.  I know this is to the feeneyites like holding up a crucifix to the devil but Catholic teaching must prevail.  Please do not be offended by Aquinas, Bellarmine and Liguori, they didn't obtain the 21st century lay status you have obtained.  


Re: John 3:5
« Reply #217 on: August 10, 2017, 12:14:38 PM »
:facepalm:

Not this crap again.  On the points where you agree with said sources (although I dispute that some of these are pro BoD), I have no quarrel with you.  I quarrel with you precisely on the points where you don't agree with these same authorities.  None of these endorsed your Pelagianism or your heretical Sacramental theology.
False accusation again.  Dispute what I have written.  

Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #218 on: August 10, 2017, 12:16:07 PM »
Last chance to be civil or I'll start quoting the authorities for the sake of anyone watching the thread in the hopes that truth will be provided.  I know this is to the feeneyites like holding up a crucifix to the devil but Catholic teaching must prevail.  Please do not be offended by Aquinas, Bellarmine and Liguori, they didn't obtain the 21st century lay status you have obtained.  
How about quoting the defined dogma of a BOD?
While you're at it, how about giving us a scenario that demonstrates a situation or circuмstance wherein it is impossible for God to provide the sincere soul the sacrament of baptism?

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #219 on: August 10, 2017, 12:17:14 PM »
My point is that your argument from the (disputed) position that non-members can be saved is invalid.  That position was in fact adopted to EXPLAIN (after the fact) why salvation is possible without actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.  So it's circular.
It is quite valid.  The Fathers, Doctors, Saints, and Popes, and theologians are far more qualified to interpret the dogma as the Church does than you are.  You see a contradiction where there is none.  You only admit it is disputed because you only have slightly more respect, at best, for the above than for the person in the next pew.