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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 36143 times)

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #190 on: August 09, 2017, 03:28:43 PM »
Quote
 They consider it possible to be a member of the Church in a partial or imperfect way,
Lumen Gentium in a nutshell and a central theme behind ecuмenism and conciliarism.

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #191 on: August 09, 2017, 03:56:22 PM »
So you present a source that opines in favor of BoD, equate it with "Church teaching," and consider this proof of something other than the fact that this source happens to opine in favor of BoD.

My answer:  I opine against it.  End of thread.
1917 Code of Canon Law

On Ecclesiastical Burial - (Canon 1239. 2)
   "Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."

The Sacred Canons by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.

Commentary on the Code:
   "The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of Desire."


Re: John 3:5
« Reply #192 on: August 09, 2017, 04:01:24 PM »
St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa, Article 1, Part III, Q. 68:
    "I answer that, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
    "Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: 'I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the graces he prayed for.' "

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #193 on: August 09, 2017, 04:08:17 PM »
Council of Trent teaches

Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
   "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
   "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #194 on: August 09, 2017, 04:18:18 PM »
JohnAnthonyMarie, I agree, BOD "could" apply to formal catechumens who are studying for the Faith.  They could be justified.  What happens to a justified, but unbaptized person?  It's not clear, but they could go to heaven, or Limbo.

My discussion with LOT is regarding all those non-catholics, who aren't catechumens.  The Church declares that they will not make heaven.