Author Topic: John 3:5 (Read 19350 times)

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **on:** October 29, 2015, 07:19:36 PM »

Quote from: Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ According to Saint John

3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

LucasL · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2015, 08:02:44 PM »

Decree on Original Sin, canon 4: "If anyone denies that infants newly born from their mothers' womb are to be baptized," even though they be born of baptized parents, "or says they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which must be expiated by the laver of regeneration" for the attainment of life everlasting, whence it follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of since is understood to be not true, but false: let him be anathema. For what the Apostle has said: "By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned" (Rom. 5:12), is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For by reason of this rule of faith from a tradition of the apostles even infants, who could not as yet commit any sins of themselves, are for this reason truly baptized for the remission of sins, so that in them there may be washed away by regeneration, what they have contracted by generation. "For unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5) (DS, 791).

There's no way that I'll believe in Baptism of Blood and or Desire without Church teaching and relying on theological arguments.

Also, I don't hold that is heretical to Believe in Baptism of Desire but for me as of today I could only find flawed theological arguments that either contradicts or are incomplete.

THEREFORE the best way to deal with Baptism of Desire is: It's possible BUT WE DONT KNOW, THE CHURCH DONT TEACHES BAPTISM OF DESIRE

Cantarella · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2015, 10:50:49 PM »

Quote from: LucasL

THEREFORE the best way to deal with Baptism of Desire is: It's possible BUT WE DONT KNOW, THE CHURCH DONT TEACHES BAPTISM OF DESIRE

Precisely!

In the year of Our Lord 2015, only ONE Baptism has been revealed by God, and that is of water. The Church can only therefore administer the Baptism of water to infants and to adults with the Catholic Faith. The Church cannot dispense Baptism of Desire certificates. The cases of Baptism of Desire and Blood are never visible to us and remain in the realm of theological speculation.

A Catholic is not a heretic if wants to believe in the Baptism of Desire or Blood. They are not heresies and can be found in some catechisms and annotations as the OP. At the same time, and most definitely, they are not dogmas of the Church either. The Baptism of Desire is the tool which liberals have used to support heretical ideas such as Universal Salvation or Indifferentism. Faithful Catholics should agree that this is the less appropriate time throughout the entire Church history, for promoting the Baptism of Desire (which really, could be only speculated in regards to justified catechumens), so it is nothing less than diabolical that Traditionalists have made it a true habit doing precisely so.

This post made by ishv is worth repeating:

Quote from: ishv

The reason they behave this way is that they have a seething hatred of the dogma "outside the Church there is no salvation". BOD is the only mechanism by which they can deny and circuмvent this doctrine and still *appear* as if they're holding the faith. ("I absolutely hold there is no salvation outside the Church! HOWEVER ... etc., etc., etc.")

Quite frankly, if you have to be a Catholic to get to heaven, and if to be a Catholic you must be baptized, all objections to EENS fall on their face with the removal of this single mechanism. Invincible ignorance, sincerity, good intentions, etc. They all go away, and this dogma is left in its pristine form.

They must also hold it to compensate for their lack of trust in the Providence of God. They believe that the God Who instituted the sacrament, the God who determined that the most abundant resource on the face of the earth be the matter of the sacrament, and the God who arranged that anyone can baptize, and the God who is more interested in our well-being and salvation than we are, is either unable or unwilling to fulfill the desire that he inspires in those sheep who are outside the fold, but who nevertheless must be brought into the fold. The Good Shepherd is impotent.

Therefore, they must hold to it tenaciously. And, moreover, they demand that you must hold it, too.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:15:17 PM »

Quote from: CODEX IURIS CANONICI

LIBER TERTIUS
DE REBUS

PARS PRIMA.
DE SACRAMENTIS.

TITULUS XII.
De sepultura ecclesiastica.

CAPUT III.
De iis quibus sepultura ecclesiastica concedenda est aut neganda.

CAN. 1239.
§ 1. Ad sepulturam ecclesiasticam non sunt admittendi qui sine baptismo decesserint.
§ 2. Catechumeni qui nulla sua culpa sine baptismo moriantur, baptizatis accensendi sunt.
§ 3. Omnes baptizati sepultura ecclesiastica donandi sunt, nisi eadem a iure expresse priventur.

On Ecclesiastical Burial - (Canon 1239. 2)
"Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."

The Sacred Canons by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.
Commentary on the Code:
"The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of Desire."

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:23:42 PM »

Quote from: Pope Pius IX

"It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (see John 3:2) shall we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins Divine mercy with Divine justice." -Singulari Quadam, no.174

LucasL · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:42:32 PM »

Canon Law is not a based on Faith and Morals, it's Church's administration

This statement below was present in the year 50, in the year 51, in the year 500, in the year 1310, in the year 1399, 1438...

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith… it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ… the Son of God is God and man…”

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists #21: “Revelation, constituting the object of Catholic faith, was not completed with the apostles.” Condemned

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #54:
“The dogmas, the sacraments, the hierarchy, as far as pertains both to the notion and to the reality, are nothing but interpretations and the evolution of Christian intelligence, which have increased and perfected the little germ latent in the Gospel.”- Condemned

You can't use a posteriori theological arguments to redefine scripture and includes Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood there just because you think it makes sense!

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2015, 11:53:48 PM »

The OP provides the Scripture Annotation for John 3:5, which includes a specific reference to Baptism of Desire. The second post I provided contained a Canon Law reference for Baptism of Desire and included a Church approved commentary. The third post I provided from Pope Pius IX contains a quote which clearly describes both EENS and BoD.

Three Church references with exact quotes, and you are who?

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:02:03 AM »

Can you produce a single Church quote that explicitly says there is no Baptism of Desire? I can easily produce quote after quote from Church authorities that explicitly teach Baptism of Desire.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #8 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:05:24 AM »

Quote from: Fr. A. Tanquery

The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.
This is certain.
Explanation: a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism.
b) Perfect charity, with a desire for Baptism, forgives original sin and actual sins, and therefore infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the Baptismal character and does not of itself remit the whole temporal punishment due for sin; whence, when the opportunity offers, the obligation remains on one who was sanctified in this manner of receiving the Baptism of water.
- Dogmatic Brevior, ART.IV, Section I,II - 1945 (1024-1)

Cantarella · « **Reply #9 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:06:12 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

The OP provides the Scripture Annotation for John 3:5, which includes a specific reference to Baptism of Desire. The second post I provided contained a Canon Law reference for Baptism of Desire and included a Church approved commentary. The third post I provided from Pope Pius IX contains a quote which clearly describes both EENS and BoD.

The OP quote is about Baptism of Desire proper, then you bring Pope Pius IX quote on Invincible Ignorance. These are actually different topics entirely only infused in a single one by liberals who want to diffuse the EENS salutary dogma and want to believe that a Moslem can be saved as a Moslem, a Hindu as and Hindu, a Jєω as a Jєω, a Pagan as a Pagan, etc.

These posts are actually quite revealing. BOD proper was never an issue to EENS until the Americanists made it one by introducing the novelty of salvific Invincible Ignorance.

This is what Modernist have done:

BOD -> Invincible Ignorance -> Universal Salvation -> Indifferentism

In these unfortunate time of crisis, as a friend and member of the Church, ask yourself why do you feel the urge to defend and promote precisely what is more contra productive to Christendom restoration?

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:15:37 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
The OP provides the Scripture Annotation for John 3:5, which includes a specific reference to Baptism of Desire. The second post I provided contained a Canon Law reference for Baptism of Desire and included a Church approved commentary. The third post I provided from Pope Pius IX contains a quote which clearly describes both EENS and BoD.

The OP quote is about Baptism of Desire proper, then you bring Pope Pius IX quote of invincible ignorance. These are actually different topics entirely only infused in a single one by liberals who want to diffuse the EENS salutary dogma and want to believe that a Moslem can be saved as a Moslem, a Hindu as and Hindu, a Jєω as a Jєω, etc?

This is what Modernist have done:

BOD -> Invincible Ignorance -> Universal Salvation -> Indifferentism

In these unfortunate time of crisis, as a friend and member of the Church, ask yourself why do you feel the need to defend and promote precisely what is more contra productive to Christendom restoration?

That is a bit silly. I am simply repeating what the Church teaches. No Catholic would ever imagine that there is Salvation Outside the Church, at the same time, no Catholic should deny Baptism of Desire in the context that it is taught by the Church.

LucasL · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:17:04 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Can you produce a single Church quote that explicitly says there is no Baptism of Desire? I can easily produce quote after quote from Church authorities that explicitly teach Baptism of Desire.

Can you provide a single Church quote that explicitly rejects Baptism of Mankind? No!
Baptism of goldstein? No

SO BAPTISM OF MANKIND MUST BE TRUE !
SO BAPTISM OF GOLDSTEIN MUST BE TRUE !

LucasL · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:18:55 AM »

This discussion is pointless. The Church don't teach Baptism of Desire and the only thing you can do is speculate

You'll die without knowing if Baptism of Desire works the way theologians proposed because the Church never defined/teach Baptism of Desire

So deal with it. You'll die without knowing how Baptism of Desire works and if it's possible at all.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:20:13 AM »

Quote from: LucasL

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Can you produce a single Church quote that explicitly says there is no Baptism of Desire? I can easily produce quote after quote from Church authorities that explicitly teach Baptism of Desire.

Can you provide a single Church quote that explicitly rejects Baptism of Mankind? No!
Baptism of goldstein? No

SO BAPTISM OF MANKIND MUST BE TRUE !
SO BAPTISM OF GOLDSTEIN MUST BE TRUE !

Seriously? You might want to consider thinking before you post, unless you are trying to look dumb.

Quote from: Fr. H. Noldin, S.J. and Fr. A. Schmit, S.J.

"Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is perfect charity or contrition, in which the desire in fact to receive the sacrament of Baptism is included; perfect charity and perfect contrition however have the power to confer sanctifying grace." - Summa theologiae moralis (Vol. III de Sacramentis); Bk 2 Quaestio prima; 1929

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:22:02 AM »

Quote from: Fr. Arthur Vermeersch, S.J.

"The Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is an act of perfect charity or contrition, in so far as it contains at least a tacit desire of the Sacrament. Therefore it can be had only in adults. It does not imprint a character; ...but it takes away all mortal sin together with the sentence of eternal penalty, according to: 'He who loves me, is loved by my Father.' (John 14:21)" - Theologiae moralis (Vol. III, Tractatus II) - 1948