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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 31933 times)

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #310 on: August 11, 2017, 01:21:12 PM »
"Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" 

Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-97: "Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato… Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view is at least temerarious."

On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."


Which part do you disagree with?

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #311 on: August 11, 2017, 01:39:30 PM »
"This is your brain on heresy"  :jester:


Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #312 on: August 11, 2017, 01:43:03 PM »
Circular reasoning.  The duly appointed authorities do not play games with God.  They do not temp the Lord teaching it is dogma that God baptizes people with water when baptism would otherwise be impossible.  

Show me where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.
First we have got to get this first item straight - please correct me if I have this wrong.........Even though YOU KNOW that there are no "theological experts and duly appointed authorities [who] make that claim" that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible", are you saying that YOU are *not* going to stop saying that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible" even though you cannot provide any scenario whatsoever wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual?

Because you have never given me any scenario, we must therefore conclude that that is not taught by any expert or authority and is most certainly not only not a teaching of the Church, it is blasphemous statement against the sacrament and God in His Providence.

As such, don't you think you should either admit that whole idea is entirely false - or provide a scenario wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual?


  

 




Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #313 on: August 11, 2017, 01:46:54 PM »
Quote
Show me where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.
This is possible, per Trent's teaching on justification.

You should be asking the question:  "Show me where it is impossible for God to baptise someone apart from water."

Ahhhhh!  Now THAT is impossible, because God ordained the rules of baptism and the Church clearly teaches these rules and She has never said He will depart from them.  Water = necessary.  As Fr Wathen points out - When Justification cleanses the soul from sin, that soul is free from guilt in the eyes of God.  But they haven't received baptism, so they are not His child, they are not heirs to heaven, they are not members in the Church, therefore if they die justified but unbaptized they will go to Limbo!  A justified person MUST still be baptised to get to heaven!

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #314 on: August 11, 2017, 01:49:44 PM »
St. Ambrose, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th Century): From his writing "De obitu Valentiniani consolatio": "But I hear that you are distressed because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me, what attribute do we have besides our will, our intention? Yet, a short time ago he had this desire that before he came to Italy he should be initiated [baptized], and he indicated that he wanted to be baptized as soon as possible by myself. Did he not, therefore, have that grace which he desired? Did he not have what he asked for? Undoubtedly because he asked for it he received it."