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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 31937 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: John 3:5
« Reply #305 on: August 11, 2017, 12:58:44 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 12:53:54 PM
I don't need to provide such a scenario.  Provide a scenario where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.
The reason that yes, you do need to provide a scenario is because YOU keep repeating that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible." - as if it is a matter of certain fact.

If you are not going to provide a scenario, then STOP SAYING THAT - agreed?
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #306 on: August 11, 2017, 01:01:43 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 11, 2017, 12:58:44 PM
The reason that yes, you do need to provide a scenario is because YOU keep repeating that a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible." - as if it is a matter of certain fact.

If you are not going to provide a scenario, then STOP SAYING THAT - agreed?
Circular reasoning.  The duly appointed authorities do not play games with God.  They do not temp the Lord teaching it is dogma that God baptizes people with water when baptism would otherwise be impossible.  

Show me where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.
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Offline ryanaugustine

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #307 on: August 11, 2017, 01:05:01 PM »
If we are going to take St. Thomas Aquinas as an authority here, then we all agree that explicit faith is necessary for all for salvation.  The Doctor tells us that this is so important that God will send a messenger, even an angel, to get this faith to the person.  So, God can work a miracle to get the faith explicitly articulated to the perishing soul.  But God will not work the miracle to get that person baptism.  This would seem to be the issue: that God will work the one miracle, but not the other.

I reject this as absurd nonsense.

In Desire and Deception, Charles Coulombe argues that this absurdity comes from the Aristotelian notion that the intellect precedes the will.  I think he is entirely correct.
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #308 on: August 11, 2017, 01:14:22 PM »
Quote from: ryanaugustine on August 11, 2017, 01:05:01 PM
If we are going to take St. Thomas Aquinas as an authority here, then we all agree that explicit faith is necessary for all for salvation.  The Doctor tells us that this is so important that God will send a messenger, even an angel, to get this faith to the person.  So, God can work a miracle to get the faith explicitly articulated to the perishing soul.  But God will not work the miracle to get that person baptism.  This would seem to be the issue: that God will work the one miracle, but not the other.

I reject this as absurd nonsense.

In Desire and Deception, Charles Coulombe argues that this absurdity comes from the Aristotelian notion that the intellect precedes the will.  I think he is entirely correct.
Explicit Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation.  We do not disagree.
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Offline DZ PLEASE

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #309 on: August 11, 2017, 01:19:06 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 01:01:43 PM
Circular reasoning.  The duly appointed authorities do not play games with God.  They do not temp the Lord teaching it is dogma that God baptizes people with water when baptism would otherwise be impossible. 

Show me where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.

Request for demonstration = "circular reasoning." Apparently you can "make this stuff up"

Dogma saying what God WILL or WON'T do conflated with CAN or CAN'T. / framing the will of God as a PRIVATION of His power ie AS AN EVIL.

"This is your brain on heresy"
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