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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 32200 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #300 on: August 11, 2017, 11:54:49 AM »
I hope Saint Alphonsus does not get in trouble:

"Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" 

 Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-97: "Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato… Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view is at least temerarious."

On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."

What do you dispute above?
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Online Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #301 on: August 11, 2017, 12:52:03 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 09:46:39 AM
This is why I've ignored you in the past.  You ask a question.  I answer it.  Then you come back claiming I said something completely different than I said.  

Your "objection" works both ways.  Who says God it is impossible for God to baptize anyone at anytime?  No one.  Who says God cannot cleanse the soul without water?  No one.  Who teaches Baptism of the Holy Ghost which is known ad "Baptism of Desire"  The Roman Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.
You keep saying a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible."

The only legitimate reason that you have to ignore me, is because I want you to answer questions - in this case, I have asked you REPEATEDLY to provide a scenario wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual.

All you said was that "theological experts and duly appointed authorities make the claim", Which is not an answer because no, "theological experts and duly appointed authorities" MOST CERTAINLY do not make that claim.

So no, you have not answered my question, all you did was make a false claim - which is not an answer.

So never mind about my "objection" and simply answer the honest question with an honest answer. That is all I am trying to get out of you. If I can ever get that out of you, we can then move on to the next point of argument.

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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #302 on: August 11, 2017, 12:53:54 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 11, 2017, 12:52:03 PM
You keep saying a BOD occurs "By desire when sacramental baptism is impossible."

The only legitimate reason that you have to ignore me, is because I want you to answer questions - in this case, I have asked you REPEATEDLY to provide a scenario wherein it is impossible for God to Provide the sacrament to the presumed sincere individual.

All you said was that "theological experts and duly appointed authorities make the claim", Which is not an answer because no, "theological experts and duly appointed authorities" MOST CERTAINLY do not make that claim.

So no, you have not answered my question, all you did was make a false claim - which is not an answer.

So never mind about my "objection" and simply answer the honest question with an honest answer. That is all I am trying to get out of you. If I can ever get that out of you, we can then move on to the next point of argument.
I don't need to provide such a scenario.  Provide a scenario where it is impossible for God to cleanse the soul of Original Sin apart from water.
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Online Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: John 3:5
« Reply #303 on: August 11, 2017, 12:55:04 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 11, 2017, 11:54:49 AM
I hope Saint Alphonsus does not get in trouble:

"Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-97: "Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato… Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view is at least temerarious."

On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."

What do you dispute above?
From:  An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)

11.  Can. 4:  Si quis dixerit sacramenta novae legis non esse ad salutem necessaria, sed superflua; et sine eis aut eorum voto per solam fidem homines a Deo gratiam justificationis adipisci, licet omnia singulis necessaria non siut, anathema sit."

12.  The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)

What do you dispute above?
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #304 on: August 11, 2017, 12:56:35 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 11, 2017, 12:55:04 PM
From:  An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)

11.  Can. 4:  Si quis dixerit sacramenta novae legis non esse ad salutem necessaria, sed superflua; et sine eis aut eorum voto per solam fidem homines a Deo gratiam justificationis adipisci, licet omnia singulis necessaria non siut, anathema sit."

12.  The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)

What do you dispute above?
Liguori does not contradict that.
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