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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 34429 times)

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #260 on: August 11, 2017, 06:47:43 AM »
I am not putting words in your mouth. You said "Trusting your own intellect or 21st century lay brothers over the Doctors of the Church doesn't work." I responded that I do not. I trust in the teachings of the Councils. You trust theologians over the Church's Rule of Faith.

St. Francis de Sales would do the same thing. He explicitly said as much. We do not need further explanation and interpretation after the Church has spoken through the Magisterium.

Why do you trust men who are as infallible as you are in matters as serious as Salvation? This why you can't win this. The Church has infallibly declared the necessity of water. It has declared this using Canons " so that all, making use of the rule of faith, with the assistance of Christ, may be able to recognize more easily the Catholic truth in the midst of the darkness of so many errors".

Trusting your intellect, and men as infallible as you are, is exactly the Protestant mentality. We must trust and believe the Dogmas as they are declared in regards to both meaning and expression.
We do not pit Catholicism against Catholicism.  The authoritative experts are in agreement with the proper interpretation of the EENS dogma and how it applies to various individuals and circuмstances.  If they all agree that water is not the only means of salvation who are we to say the are all wrong?

Do you really think we understand the infallible decrees on EENS better than the theologians, Fathers, Doctors, Saints and Popes?

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #261 on: August 11, 2017, 07:24:26 AM »

When has the Church ever said that we need other men to explain Papal pronouncements to us? The Church has said that the pronouncements themselves are the final explanation.
St. Francis De Sales (Doctor of the Church), The Catholic Controversy, c. 1602, p. 228: “The Councils… decide and define some article.  If after all this another test has to be tried before their [the Council’s] determination is received, will not another also be wanted?  Who will not want to apply his test, and whenever will the matter be settled?... And why not a third to know if the second is faithful? – and then a fourth, to test the third?  Everything must be done over again, and posterity will never trust antiquity but will go ever turning upside down the holiest articles of faith in the wheel of their understandings… what we say is that when a Council has applied this test, our brains have not now to revise but to believe.”
The Council of Trent even tells us that the teaching of the Councils are what we are to understand and the Canons contained therein are for everybody, all the faithful, to make use of as the RULE OF FAITH!
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Sess. 13, Chap. 4: “These are the matters which in general it seemed well to the sacred Council to teach to the faithful of Christ regarding the sacrament of order.  It has, however, resolved to condemn the contrary in definite and appropriate canons in the following manner, so that all, making use of the rule of faith, with the assistance of Christ, may be able to recognize more easily the Catholic truth in the midst of the darkness of so many errors.”
This makes the canon on the Sacrament of Baptism for all the faithful to understand, not to be interpreted or watered down to mean something it does not.
Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

This is not true. The Church's teaching on the necessity for water Baptism for salvation has been proven from sources of authority. He has no regard for the authority of the Magisterium. Instead, he appeals to men for his "faith". LOT's belief that the pronouncements of the Church need to be further "explained" by Church men so that we can "truly" have the real "understanding" of the Dogma is indeed a novelty.

quotes from MHFM site
…and further, for example, why are we NOT told as with dogma, to do anything other than to BELIEVE (not "understand", or "interpret" or "analyze" or read it "in context" or have someone ELSE tell us "what it really says/means"? What good is an INFALLIBLE teacher that cannot DIRECTLY, IMMEDIATELY and INFALLIBY >COMMUNICATE< said teaching? If it MUST be passed through FALLIBLE hands who therefore FALLIBLY teach INFALLIBLE matter then how does this not effectively render said teaching FALLIBLE at least for all others than the INFALLIBLE  source? In other words, if it CAN'T be received infallibly, then it isn't and CAN'T be taught INFALLIBLY, because BY DEFINITION it is being imperfectly transmitted. Not infallibly learnable = not infallible teaching. It does no good to say "maybe" either because that is exactly the point. Why did S. Augustine say "I believe SO THAT I may understand" .^., UNDERSTANDING IS >CONTINGENT UPON BELIEF
When it comes to faith, we will NEVER (motive) understand FIRST. We must,  like a child, TAKE GOD's WORD CFOR IT


Re: John 3:5
« Reply #262 on: August 11, 2017, 07:27:47 AM »
…and further, for example, why are we NOT told as with dogma, to do anything other than to BELIEVE (not "understand", or "interpret" or "analyze" or read it "in context" or have someone ELSE tell us "what it really says/means"? What good is an INFALLIBLE teacher that cannot DIRECTLY, IMMEDIATELY and INFALLIBY >COMMUNICATE< said teaching? If it MUST be passed through FALLIBLE hands who therefore FALLIBLY teach INFALLIBLE matter then how does this not effectively render said teaching FALLIBLE at least for all others than the INFALLIBLE  source? In other words, if it CAN'T be received infallibly, then it isn't and CAN'T be taught INFALLIBLY, because BY DEFINITION it is being imperfectly transmitted. Not infallibly learnable = not infallible teaching. It does no good to say "maybe" either because that is exactly the point. Why did S. Augustine say "I believe SO THAT I may understand" .^., UNDERSTANDING IS >CONTINGENT UPON BELIEF
When it comes to faith, we will NEVER (motive) understand FIRST. We must,  like a child, TAKE GOD's WORD CFOR IT
But you do interpret it when you say no one can be within the Church apart from water.  The feeneyite heresy is a perfect example on how all the theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes have to go away in order to preserve the heresy.  I'm not sure how anyone of good will cannot see that.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #263 on: August 11, 2017, 07:43:02 AM »
Quote
But you do interpret it when you say no one can be within the Church apart from water.  The feeneyite heresy is a perfect example on how all the theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes have to go away in order to preserve the heresy.
An infallible council is greater, more important and of a higher authority than ALL the theologians, Doctors, Saints and papal opinions COMBINED!!!!  Do you understand what infallible means?  Your problem is you put all of these lesser 'authorities' (with a lowercase 'a') on the same level as an infallible, dogmatic decree.  There's no comparison whatsoever.  An infallible decree is the ULTIMATE human means of teaching.  It is on par with the words of Christ Himself in Scripture, for it comes to us DIRECTLY from God, through the pope, and is 100% protected from error and MUST be believed, without question, without interpretation, without commentary.  No ifs, ands or buts!

You do not seem to grasp this concept.

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #264 on: August 11, 2017, 07:48:42 AM »
An infallible council is greater, more important and of a higher authority than ALL the theologians, Doctors, Saints and papal opinions COMBINED!!!!  Do you understand what infallible means?  Your problem is you put all of these lesser 'authorities' (with a lowercase 'a') on the same level as an infallible, dogmatic decree.  There's no comparison whatsoever.  An infallible decree is the ULTIMATE human means of teaching.  It is on par with the words of Christ Himself in Scripture, for it comes to us DIRECTLY from God, through the pope, and is 100% protected from error and MUST be believed, without question, without interpretation, without commentary.  No ifs, ands or buts!
You do not seem to grasp this concept.
The infallible council taught BOD.  Again you are acting like Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes aren't as qualified to interpret Trent as the 21st Century lay-bloggers.  That would give any good-willed and sincere man in the unfortunate position of disagreement with Trent and the duly appointed members of the ecclessia docens pause and grave reason for concern.  To be patently obvious you might want to rethink your position and who you trust for secure and infallible guidance.