Author Topic: John 3:5 (Read 33482 times)

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #25 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:49:37 AM »

Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa, Article 1, Part III, Q. 68:
"I answer that, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
"Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: 'I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the graces he prayed for.' "

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #26 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:51:29 AM »

Quote from: Council of Trent

Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
"If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
"In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

LucasL · « **Reply #27 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:53:27 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Yet another silly reply. I do not believe you can produce a single Church reference that explicitly says there is no Baptism of Desire in the same context that the Church has taught it.

Where did you read that "IN case The Church does not teach against Baptism of Desire, one must believe in the teaching of theologians" ?

You don't understand the difference between dogma and theological speculation.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #28 on:** October 30, 2015, 01:01:08 AM »

The point is that the Church DOES teach Baptism of Desire, which is more than obvious. Now, you on the other hand, have elected to represent yourself as an authority on the topic, but somehow you do not have a single Church reference that explicitly teaches against this truth.

LucasL · « **Reply #29 on:** October 30, 2015, 01:04:43 AM »

Whatever. You'll always find a theologian to support any idea you want, even the idea of "Cosmic God" by a Jesuit theologian who was praised by B16.

You literally can get almost any belief you want and you'll find a theologian that support it.

Good luck in your journey.

P.S: You hold that Baptism of Desire is a dogma, YOU have to provide proof from Church teaching and not theologians.

You're dishonest and no matter what I say you will reply like a spoiled girl.