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Author Topic: John 3:5  (Read 35089 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #220 on: August 10, 2017, 12:17:25 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 10, 2017, 12:14:38 PM
False accusation again.  Dispute what I have written.  
It's impossible for anyone to dispute what you have written because while you seem to speak English, you don't understand it very well at all.
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #221 on: August 10, 2017, 12:18:48 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 10, 2017, 12:16:07 PM
How about quoting the defined dogma of a BOD?
While you're at it, how about giving us a scenario that demonstrates a situation or circuмstance wherein it is impossible for God to provide the sincere soul the sacrament of baptism?
The people I quote understand the Dogma, those who disagree with them do not.  Water is not intrinsically necessary but sanctifying grace.  

Do you affirm or deny?  Please elaborate with authoritative sources or let me and Ladislaus continue.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #222 on: August 10, 2017, 12:23:08 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 10, 2017, 12:18:48 PM
The people I quote understand the Dogma, those who disagree with them do not.  Water is not intrinsically necessary but sanctifying grace.  

Do you affirm or deny?  Please elaborate with authoritative sources or let me and Ladislaus continue.
There is a dogma saying the sacrament of baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation and water is the matter which must be administered.

So I deny that water is not intrinsically necessary.

LoT, it's one thing for theologians to expound on dogma and how it impacts us, it's a whole nother thing for theologians to explain it to make it say the opposite of what it says - or anything other than exactly what it says. V1 condemned the latter.
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Offline Lover of Truth

Re: John 3:5
« Reply #223 on: August 10, 2017, 12:28:35 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 10, 2017, 12:23:08 PM
There is a dogma saying the sacrament of baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation and water is the matter which must be administered.

So I deny that water is not intrinsically necessary.

LoT, it's one thing for theologians to expound on dogma and how it impacts us, it's a whole nother thing for theologians to explain it to make it say the opposite of what it says - or anything other than exactly what it says. V1 condemned the latter.
Stubborn, I believe you are a good-willed man.  Baptism is necessary with a relative necessity of means.  Not an intrinsic necessity.  Trent and all else agree that when baptism is impossible the desire, along with all the other requisites will suffice.  Desire of itself does nothing apart from supernatural faith and perfect charity.  This isn't what I teach but what the Church teaches.  Good Catholics give their internal ascent to all authoritative docuмents of the Church which means you accept that there is no salvation outside the Church and that non-members can be saved within it even if you can't understand it.

But it is no great mystery.  It can be understood.  
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5
« Reply #224 on: August 10, 2017, 12:35:49 PM »
Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 10, 2017, 12:28:35 PM
Stubborn, I believe you are a good-willed man.  Baptism is necessary with a relative necessity of means.  Not an intrinsic necessity.  Trent and all else agree that when baptism is impossible the desire, along with all the other requisites will suffice.  Desire of itself does nothing apart from supernatural faith and perfect charity.  This isn't what I teach but what the Church teaches.  Good Catholics give their internal ascent to all authoritative docuмents of the Church which means you accept that there is no salvation outside the Church and that non-members can be saved within it even if you can't understand it.

But it is no great mystery.  It can be understood.  
If you actually believe this, then this belief hinges on the impossibility for the person to receive the sacrament.

I ask again for you to come up with a circuмstance where it is impossible for God to provide the sacrament to the sincere soul about to die.
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