Author Topic: John 3:5 (Read 33400 times)

LucasL · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:30:03 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: LucasL

THEREFORE the best way to deal with Baptism of Desire is: It's possible BUT WE DONT KNOW, THE CHURCH DONT TEACHES BAPTISM OF DESIRE

Precisely!

In the year of Our Lord 2015, only ONE Baptism has been revealed by God, and that is of water. The Church can only therefore administer the Baptism of water to infants and to adults with the Catholic Faith. The Church cannot dispense Baptism of Desire certificates. The cases of Baptism of Desire and Blood are never visible to us and remain in the realm of theological speculation.

A Catholic is not a heretic if wants to believe in the Baptism of Desire or Blood. They are not heresies and can be found in some catechisms and annotations as the OP. At the same time, and most definitely, they are not dogmas of the Church either. The Baptism of Desire is the tool which liberals have used to support heretical ideas such as Universal Salvation or Indifferentism. Faithful Catholics should agree that this is the less appropriate time throughout the entire Church history, for promoting the Baptism of Desire (which really, could be only speculated in regards to justified catechumens), so it is nothing less than diabolical that Traditionalists have made it a true habit doing precisely so.

This post made by ishv is worth repeating:

Quote from: ishv

The reason they behave this way is that they have a seething hatred of the dogma "outside the Church there is no salvation". BOD is the only mechanism by which they can deny and circuмvent this doctrine and still *appear* as if they're holding the faith. ("I absolutely hold there is no salvation outside the Church! HOWEVER ... etc., etc., etc.")

Quite frankly, if you have to be a Catholic to get to heaven, and if to be a Catholic you must be baptized, all objections to EENS fall on their face with the removal of this single mechanism. Invincible ignorance, sincerity, good intentions, etc. They all go away, and this dogma is left in its pristine form.

They must also hold it to compensate for their lack of trust in the Providence of God. They believe that the God Who instituted the sacrament, the God who determined that the most abundant resource on the face of the earth be the matter of the sacrament, and the God who arranged that anyone can baptize, and the God who is more interested in our well-being and salvation than we are, is either unable or unwilling to fulfill the desire that he inspires in those sheep who are outside the fold, but who nevertheless must be brought into the fold. The Good Shepherd is impotent.

Therefore, they must hold to it tenaciously. And, moreover, they demand that you must hold it, too.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:30:48 AM »

Quote from: Fr. Aloysia Sabetti, S.J. and Fr. Timotheo Barrett, S.J.

"Baptism, the gate and foundation of the Sacraments in fact or at least in desire, is necessary for all unto salvation...
From the Baptism of water, which is called of river (Baptismus fluminis), is from Baptism of the Spirit (Baptismus flaminis) and Baptism of Blood, by which Baptism properly speaking can be supplied, if this be impossible. The first one is a full conversion to God through perfect contrition or charity, in so far as it contains an either explicit or at least implicit will to receive Baptism of water ... Baptism of Spirit (flaminis) and Baptism of Blood are called Baptism of desire (in voto). - Compendium Theologiae Moralis; Tractatus XII De Baptismo (Chap. 1) - 1926

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:32:00 AM »

LucasL, I already read the quote you quoted, and I disagree. - it is opinion, and flawed.

I am not responsible if you agree with the Church or not. I am not here to sell you anything. I simply asked you to support your erroneous position with Church quotes that explicitly support your position.

LucasL · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:44:29 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: LucasL
I don't care how many theologians you quote, you can quote two thousands theologians still they can only speculate and propose their conclusions. They can't define what the Church never defined

Are you not able to identify a single Church authority that teaches against Baptism of Desire? Says something, no?

You expect me to find theologians or Saints (and there are quite a few) who rejects Baptism of Desire and compare with numbers and then we would judge this question based on how many theologians and saints are favourable?

This is pathetic.

St. Gregory of Elvira, 360 A.D.:

“Christ is called Net, because through Him and in Him the diverse multitudes of peoples are gathered from the sea of the world, through the water of Baptism and into the Church, where a distinction is made between the good and the wicked.”

St. Ambrose, 387 A.D.:

“‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.”

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Canon 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (John. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:47:55 AM »

Yet another silly reply. I do not believe you can produce a single Church reference that explicitly says there is no Baptism of Desire in the same context that the Church has taught it.