Hi LOT,
Your explanations are very hard to understand because you are using quasi-modernist terms, which attempt to explain salvation outside of clear, simple catholic teaching. Theologians often do this, and because they are not infallible, it can be confusing. So, based on what has been infallibly defined by the Church, here is what we know, without a doubt:
1. EENS = you must be a member of the church to be saved.
2. Christ = you must be baptised by water and the holy spirit to be saved.
3. Florence = you must be a member of the church to be saved.
4. Trent = one can be justified (i.e. receive sanctifying grace) if they 1) properly understand baptism and the Church and 2) desire baptism.
5. Trent pt 2 = the formal sacrament of baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.
Church teaching says that there are only 3 classes of souls:
1. Baptised members
2. Unbaptised non-members
b. This includes unbaptised catechumens, who are justified. Per Church teaching they are not yet members.
The only argument one can make is that an unbaptised, catechumen COULD make it to heaven, based on some as-yet-undefined "imperfect" membership. Many saints and popes have hinted at this possibility, BUT (in the case of the popes) they did not DEFINE this, they only spoke in encylicals (which are only solemn declarations if they follow V1 requirements). Any other argument is an error, because it would contradict the infallbile doctrines above. All of the saints' opinions before 1441 and Trent are null and void and overruled.
There is NO ARGUMENT one can make that ANY non-catholic, (outside of formal catechumens), can be saved. Those who make such an argument (like Fenton) are arguing against clear, infallible, ex-cathedra catholic doctrine.
Please understand that I state the following respectfully, I'm not talking down to you. Theologians use terms that some lay-people have difficulty with because they are able to make various distinctions. They explain what the Church has taught. This is why good Catholics respect them very much and devour their manuals and do not doubt what they teach unless there is not unanimity among them on a certain point.
The difficulty that many laypeople have in making proper distinctions leads to the use of imprecise terms in catechisms so the common lay person can understand. For instance it will teach that a non-member can be saved by being attached to the soul of the Church and not the body. The soul of the Church, as we and the theologians know is the Holy Ghost, and that there is no "soul" of the Church that stretches beyond the body. But wording it this way is more digestible to the layperson who is unable to understand that a non-member can be saved within the Church by effectively salvific desire. Catechisms can be less precise to avoid confusing the common man with nuances and distinctions he is not ready to grasp. It shows the Fathers, Doctors, Popes who taught BOD did not contradict any solemn definition either before or after it was defined. They understand the definitions whereas meany 21st century laypeople clearly do not. The traditional clergy, theologians, Doctors and Popes who taught BOD after the definition of EENS know what they are talking about. Those who disagree with what all of them taught do not. I believe EENS was defined significantly before 1441 BTW.
For instance many modern laypeople, especially after being ensconced in the Feeneyite mentality, and let's face it, the Dimonds are good at promoting their stuff and are rather convincing. They almost took me in. I'm sure the Benedict Center is the same way.
This leads to people thinking of membership and being within the Church as being the exact same thing when in fact it is not. This is why each of the many times EENS has been formally taught they always teach EENS and not "No Salvation for Non-members". Words have meaning, there is a reason why it is defined the one way and not the other. Again this is why the Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes can teach BOD despite undeniably being aware of the EENS dogma. Anyone who claims that the Saints, Doctors and Popes are not aware of the dogma are not honest or have a supreme opinion of their own intellects believing they know more about theology than the Doctors and Popes. I hope we can agree on that.
1. EENS = you must be within the Church to be saved.
2. Christ = God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity
3. Florence = you must be associated
agregati with the Church for salvation to be possible
4. Trent = the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof.
5. Trent pt 2 = baptism or the desire for it is absolutely necessary for salvation to be possible.
The classes of souls are
1. Those within the Church at least by desire.
2. Those outside the Church.
Not all baptized are members of the Church as your listing above unintentionally (I'm sure) implies. Nowhere is it taught that catechumens are the only non-members who could be saved within the Church. At the end of the day, ALL magisterial teaching requires the assent of the common man like you and me. So although there are different notes, for all practical purposes, that’s irrelevant. Secondly, the question of assent aside, the Magisterium cannot teach HERESY (even as “optional”!) and neither can it teach anything else against what has been previously taught because that would erase the Church’s credibility.
The saints, Doctors and Popes after Trent taught they same thing they taught before Trent. My repeated point is that they have understood Florence and Trent better than we do. They are not erroneous but those who disagree with them are. Once you realize this you no longer have to defend your (Feeney's, Dimonds) interpretation of the above against the onslaught of quotes before and after Trent from authoritative sources to the contrary.
It is wrong to believe those in mortal sin can be saved or that one outside the Church can be saved, not that non-members can be saved within the Church. No one has defined how often this happens. It is probably quite rare but it is indeed possible for non-members to have a supernatural faith and perfect charity and therefore be saved within the Church just as it is possible for members within the Church to be damned. Sanctifying grace can be obtained by non-members within the Church as even the docuмented historical events have proven in regards to BOB and as has been repeatedly taught in regards to BOD.
Topic: John 3:5 (Read 36015 times)