Author Topic: John 3:5 (Read 36229 times)

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #150 on:** January 05, 2016, 03:21:51 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Here is the solemn and infallible pronouncement for you then. Nothing less than a Dogma of the Faith and a matter of fact:

Quote
Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation.

Dr. Ott, source of the quote provided, also describes Baptism of Desire in this same reference. Pulling a single quote out of context to validate a misrepresentation is deceptive at best.

Cantarella · « **Reply #151 on:** January 05, 2016, 03:34:10 PM »

Quote from: John Anthony Marie

Pulling a single quote out of context to validate a misrepresentation is deceptive at best.

Which is exactly what you do when pretending that single paragraph in QCM teaches infallibly salvific invincible ignorance, especially against several dogmatic pronouncements supporting EESN, as written.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #152 on:** January 05, 2016, 03:41:34 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: John Anthony Marie

Pulling a single quote out of context to validate a misrepresentation is deceptive at best.

... teaches infallibly salvific invincible ignorance...

It would be a logical fallacy to attribute this that you describe to me, and is further example of your deceptive practices here.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #153 on:** January 05, 2016, 03:47:10 PM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: Pope Pius IX
"It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (see John 3:2) shall we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins Divine mercy with Divine justice." -Singulari Quadam, no.174

With proper orientation, there is no contradiction between what is said with one hand or the other.

Cantarella · « **Reply #154 on:** January 05, 2016, 04:25:33 PM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Pope Pius IX
"It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (see John 3:2) shall we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins Divine mercy with Divine justice." -Singulari Quadam, no.174

With proper orientation, there is no contradiction between what is said with one hand or the other.

"With proper orientation" basically means that at the end, someone could be indeed saved without the visible and tangible Sacraments dispensed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church, as well as completely ignorant of the Gospel. This is to say, that the Sacraments are optional, which is an officially condemned proposition. "With proper orientation" is simply an unnecessary distortion of the EENS dogma in all its purity, and it just means that there can be visible and known exceptions to such dogma as if we could ever see the dead.