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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 15335 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #255 on: October 07, 2022, 01:55:13 PM »
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  • You can Google it, but here is a very brief description i found:

    In 1949, weary of Feeney’s denunciations, Cushing silenced him and ordered the St. Benedict Center in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where Feeney served as chaplain, off limits to Catholics.
    Here is a posting about all you need to know about Archbishop Cushing as regards Fr. Feeney.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline praesul

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #256 on: October 07, 2022, 05:49:08 PM »
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  • Here is a posting about all you need to know about Archbishop Cushing as regards Fr. Feeney.
    Thank you for sharing that link Stubborn. I have bumped into lots of good information on how by the late 1940s the Masonic / Jєω cabal working in concert both in Rome and in the USA worked hard to try to shut down the faithful priests that were resisting the ongoing attacks on the Holy Dogma. They obviously had their operatives in place long before V2 was called. Many of those evil anti Christ operatives were in the Holy Office. 

    Astute observers have pointed at the fact that more than 90% of the Vatican II and post-Vatican II heresies deal directly or indirectly with the denial of the necessity of the Catholic Church and the denial of the evil of non-Catholic religions. Look at the decree on ecuмenism (Unitatis Redintegratio), the decree on non-Christian religions (Nostra Aetate) or the decree on religious liberty (Dignitatis Humanae), among others, which all give praise and esteem for false religions or assert that members of other religions can be saved. 
    "Adversity is the touchstone of friendship" ~ French Proverb

    '"Prefer nothing to the work of God"  ~ St. Benedict 


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #257 on: October 07, 2022, 06:05:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: praesul 10/7/2022, 12:49:22 PM

    Thank you for the response epiphany.

    From my research I do not think that the statement that Father Feeney was excommunicated "for heresy" is supported by the official docuмents on record.

    Father Feeney's excommunication is docuмented in the AAS (February 16, 1953) Vol. XXXXV, Page 100. It indicates he was excommunicated ipso facto for not appearing in front of the tribunal of the Holy Office. Thus, according to the official record, canonical penalties are being rendered for disobedience rather than for "heresy".

    This is not the first time that I have encountered the assertion that Father Feeney was excommunicated "for heresy" as you posted. It seems that this assertion is part of a wider information war that was clearly (and still is) waged to sway the hearts and minds of people who are trying to seek the truth of the matter. Another fact that has impacted my perceptions on this chunk of history is that the infiltrator modernist prelates that were in charge in the Holy Office at that time broke the protocols of secrecy and leaked highly sensitive internal correspondence related to this matter with the anti-Christ secular press. Then, the secular press in a coordinated fashion used this leaked correspondence and hammered home the narrative that "the doctrine of Father Feeney" on salvation was declared heretical by the Pope. This was false, but here we are with many people in 2022 continuing to recycle this false notion.

    It seems to me that the teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation is not a creation of a Catholic priest named Leonard Feeney. It is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ that was upheld by the Deposit of Faith.
    It seems to me that it doesn't matter.

    Fr. Feeney was stripped of his priestly faculties in 1949 and excommunicated in 1953 (before Vatican II).  The excommunication was not lifted until 1972 (after Vatican II).

    Clearly the Church says that there is more than one form of baptism.

    for scriptural examples of baptism of desire, see Acts 10:44–48; cf. Luke 23:42–43 and Luke 12:50.

    Likewise, in the thirteenth century, and in response to the question whether a man can be saved without baptism, Thomas Aquinas replied: “I answer that the sacrament of baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized nor wish to be baptized; which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament in regard to those who have the use of free will. Consequently, those to whom baptism is wanting thus cannot obtain salvation; since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through whom alone can salvation be obtained.
    “Secondly, the sacrament of baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire; for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized but by some ill chance he is forestalled by death before receiving baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that works by charity, whereby God, whose power is not tied to the visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen, ‘I lost him whom I was to regenerate, but he did not lose the grace he prayed for’” (Summa Theologia III:68:2, cf. III:66:11–12).

    Trent also states: “Justification . . . is not merely remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts, whereby an unrighteous man becomes a righteous man, and from being an enemy [of God] becomes a friend, that he may be ‘an heir according to the hope of life everlasting’ [Titus 3:7]” (Decree on Justification7).

    Also the Baltimore Catechism.

    There sould be no question to one and all that baptism of blood is also a legit form of baptism.

    Those who do not believe in three forms of baptism are, like Fr. Feeney, not Catholic.

    Offline praesul

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #258 on: October 07, 2022, 06:17:18 PM »
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  • Fr. Feeney was stripped of his priestly faculties in 1949 and excommunicated in 1953 (before Vatican II). 
    Consider that the fallen prelates who broke the secrecy rules of the Holy Office and who conspired with the Jєωιѕн controlled media to smear Father Feeney are the exact same ones that pushed the heretical teachings of the Second Vatican Council that have destroyed countless souls with the satanic lie that a person can deny Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be justified and enter into eternal life. 
    "Adversity is the touchstone of friendship" ~ French Proverb

    '"Prefer nothing to the work of God"  ~ St. Benedict 

    Offline praesul

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #259 on: October 07, 2022, 06:24:10 PM »
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  • Those who do not believe in three forms of baptism are, like Fr. Feeney, not Catholic.
    Please share with us the authority that binds a Catholic under pain of excommunication to hold and profess an idea that is *at best* a theological theory that is neither part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium or Dogmatic. 
    "Adversity is the touchstone of friendship" ~ French Proverb

    '"Prefer nothing to the work of God"  ~ St. Benedict 


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #260 on: October 07, 2022, 06:34:47 PM »
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  • Please share with us the authority that binds a Catholic under pain of excommunication to hold and profess an idea that is *at best* a theological theory that is neither part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium or Dogmatic.
    We, as Catholics, do not get to pick and choose what we are to believe.  

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #261 on: October 07, 2022, 06:37:55 PM »
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  • Consider that the fallen prelates who broke the secrecy rules of the Holy Office and who conspired with the Jєωιѕн controlled media to smear Father Feeney are the exact same ones that pushed the heretical teachings of the Second Vatican Council 
    This has no merit whatsoever.

    Offline praesul

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #262 on: October 07, 2022, 07:22:12 PM »
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  • We, as Catholics, do not get to pick and choose what we are to believe. 
    I agree that Catholics do not get to pick and choose "what we are to believe." There are things that all Catholics must believe. There are things that some Catholics may believe but are not required to believe.

    Now, can you please respond to my request for you to share with us the authority that binds a Catholic under pain of excommunication to hold and profess an idea that is *at best* a theological theory that is neither part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium or Dogmatic ?

    "Adversity is the touchstone of friendship" ~ French Proverb

    '"Prefer nothing to the work of God"  ~ St. Benedict 


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #263 on: October 07, 2022, 09:51:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: praesul 10/7/2022, 7:22:12 PM
    I agree that Catholics do not get to pick and choose "what we are to believe." There are things that all Catholics must believe. There are things that some Catholics may believe but are not required to believe.

    Now, can you please respond to my request for you to share with us the authority that binds a Catholic under pain of excommunication to hold and profess an idea that is *at best* a theological theory that is neither part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium or Dogmatic ?
    It's an act of faith to accept the notion that the Catholic Church is the One True Church established by Jesus Christ, historically continuous, universal, specially protected by the Holy Ghost for the purpose of passing down the apostolic deposit.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #264 on: October 07, 2022, 11:00:11 PM »
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  • epiphany is a Pelagian heretic and also a Modernist heretic.  He is to be ignored.  I would have banned him months ago if this were my forum.

    He's no Traditional Catholic but is likely here just trolling.

    He makes up nonsense about things allegedly taking place a Traditional chapels that no one here has ever heard of, including many of us who have over the years attended many different Traditional chapels, aligned with different groups.

    He also promotes a very loose interpretation of when marriages can be annulled, has asserted that there's rampant physical abuse of women by Traditional Catholic men, asserts that the priests defend the abusers and fault the wives for complaining about it, and promotes the Pelagian heresy that unbaptized infants can go to Heaven and enter the Beatific vision.  He has claimed that many/most Traditional Catholic young men want to marry women who would work while they stayed home and did nothing.  All those that I know would be ashamed of such a situation.  Some have, on this account, suspected him of actually being a female, but he's denied that.  So at the very least he's some self-hating man and a misandrist.

    I also suspect, but cannot prove, that he was behind some of the troll posts that started appearing in the Anonymous forum after epiphany signed up here recounting some bizarre things taking place at an allegedly-Traditional chapel.

    He sees no issue with Pelagian heresy, but then denounces Feeneyism unequivocally as heresy.  In fact, he knows of no other or worse heresy than Feeneyism, giving Modernist heretics a free pass out of a sanctimonious and self-righteous "charity" that he denounces most Traditional Catholics as lacking (but which he has in abundance).  This reminds me of Bergoglio being proud of his humility and excoriating all others for lacking it and not being "as humble as I".

    Here's another one who simply doesn't like EENS dogma, and so he comes up with all manner of justification for rejecting it, even accusing those who don't reject it of heresy.  And, really, Feeneyism is the worst heresy he can think of and, in fact, perhaps the only heresy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #265 on: October 07, 2022, 11:15:42 PM »
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  • I agree that Catholics do not get to pick and choose "what we are to believe." There are things that all Catholics must believe. There are things that some Catholics may believe but are not required to believe.

    Now, can you please respond to my request for you to share with us the authority that binds a Catholic under pain of excommunication to hold and profess an idea that is *at best* a theological theory that is neither part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium or Dogmatic ?

    epiphany is full of it to the point that his eyes are brown when he talks about not getting to "pick and choose what we are to believe".  He's clearly "picked and chosen" what he wants to believe, but then to justify it, he claims that things are taught by the Church.  This is how he fictitiously absolves himself from picking and choosing, by turning it into a tautology, and slandering the Church for teaching what he wants to believe, such as that unbaptized infants can go to Heaven.

    People have cited one dogmatic definition after another, such as from the Council of Florence, which teaches that unbaptized infants have "no other hope of salvation" other than the SACRAMENT of Baptism.  But he "picks and chooses" to ignore this, and by ignoring it can continue to pretend that he is following Catholic teaching.  In fact, he is his own rule of faith but then attempts to impose his own beliefs on the Church.  It's not enough for him to pertinaciously adhere to heresy, but he tries to slander the Church as teaching it.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #266 on: October 08, 2022, 04:52:22 AM »
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  • There sould be no question to one and all that baptism of blood is also a legit form of baptism.

    Those who do not believe in three forms of baptism are, like Fr. Feeney, not Catholic.
    This is something that has always intrigued me, I mean, nobody, but nobody EVER hears this type of thing coming out of the mouths of non-baptized people. As a point of fact even epiphany would never say such an absurd thing if he was one of the billions of people who've never been baptized. And if he was a catechumen in imminent danger of death, who here thinks he'd still spout such nonsense?

     You never hear an infidel or catechumen insisting that he can make it to heaven without the sacrament or by desiring the sacrament, and for the catechumen quite the opposite is actually true. For the catechumens who find the true faith, the most important and very first thing they seek is to be baptized immediately even before they begin to learn their faith - and they remain in a state of anxiousness to be baptized until the day finally arrives when they finally receive the sacrament and enter the Church. In fact, for fear of dying before they get baptized, catechumens would gladly make a deal to receive the sacrament first, then receive catechetical instruction after.
     
    It's as if the whole mentality regarding a BOD is somehow tied to how BLM is championed mainly by white Libs. It's as if the same diabolical tactic is used repeatedly throughout history with only minor adjustments made based on the particular subject matter.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #267 on: October 08, 2022, 05:55:13 AM »
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  • "Trent", as you call it, is not "ambiguous", but some people do not understand the inclusive use of the word or in the passage that is used by  many who hold to the error of BoD.


    Here are the words of our Savior:

    John 3:5 – Amen, amen I say unto thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God
    :facepalm:

    Some "people"? You mean like St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonus, the theologians of the Roman Catechism, or Catechism of Trent? Even Father Feeney read the "or" of Trent as disjunctive, since he recognized one could be justified by a desire for the sacrament, just like the Council of Trent said.

    This would be hysterical were it not so sad, such a lugubrious irony. It is so outlandish and odd that a word like "lugubrious" fits precisely.

    If we were Protestants, I'd say, "ok, bro, you have your argument from Scripture fixated on your reading of that verse - though JWs and all other heretics latch onto verses and do the same thing - but we disagree." But this is a Traditional Catholic forum, where Prot private interpretation is condemned.

    Trad Catholics interpret Scripture as the Church and her authorized teachers, bishops, popes, etc. in catechisms and their ordinary teaching teach them to interpret it. So you do realize that Trent in the passage you - alone with other Feeneyites - with your interpretation controvert says this:



    Quote
    Session VI, CHAPTER IV.


    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Every Catholic theologian, bishop, etc. who has commented on that "or" - even Father Feeney by necessary implication, since he acknowledged a BOD could justify - has held that "or' to be disjunctive: Every. Single. One.

    Which means, unless you separate yourself from the faith of every single Catholic saint, theologian, bishop, etc. since Trent, that the Church above has interpreted John 3:5 to mean a man could be justified by, in the highlight in red from the following quote from Orestes Brownson (who commonsensically and and correctly acknowledged that to die in a state of justification meant one would be saved): "most important to be insisted on is, not that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament in re, but that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament at least in voto et proxima dispositione."

    How "Protestant" of you to read John 3:5 the way you and your cohorts do, though you won't see that elephant crossing your path.


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #268 on: October 08, 2022, 06:19:11 AM »
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  • Here's a question asked a few years ago by ihsv, a poster I liked a lot. I cannot remember if it was ever answered but I don't think so.

    "Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

    Yes or no."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #269 on: October 08, 2022, 06:29:58 AM »
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  • Some "people"? You mean like St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonus, the theologians of the Roman Catechism, or Catechism of Trent? Even Father Feeney read the "or" of Trent as disjunctive, since he recognized one could be justified by a desire for the sacrament, just like the Council of Trent said.
    But Trent never said that "one could be justified by a desire for the sacrament" of baptism, what Trent taught is that without a desire for the sacrament, justification cannot be attained. We can say your statement is perhaps only a half truth, to attempt to make it accurate you would have to say "one could or could not be justified by a desire for the sacrament."

    Note too, in virtue of the opening sentence of that canon, Trent was referring to those already baptized.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse