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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 42150 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #145 on: August 25, 2022, 09:42:33 AM »
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Where do you keep getting the idea of "justification by desire?" Not from Trent.
:facepalm:  This is Fr Feeney's entire point.

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Yes, of course they have done what is necessary and acquired some knowledge of the faith, but that is not in question either. The point of me pointing out the necessity of faith, is that the necessity of faith is non-existent in all BOD formulas, including your "justification by desire" idea.
Another distinction you are missing is the 2 different types of faith.  1) imperfect faith and 2) supernatural Faith.  God gives imperfect faith to those whom He wishes to find the Church and it is this faith which they must learn (on a human level) and also which they must have (in an imperfect way) in order to have the proper disposition for baptism. 


Imperfect faith is necessary BEFORE baptism.
AFTER baptism, one receives supernatural/perfect Faith.
SUPERNATURAL Faith is necessary for HEAVEN/Salvation.

One can have imperfect faith as a catechumen.  One can obtain imperfect justification (at least I think they can) by way of
1) imperfect faith (i.e. desire/knowledge of the baptism) and
2) contrition for sins.

You are confusing the two different types of faith and saying that the "necessity of faith" needed for baptism is supernatural.  That's impossible because you only get supernatural faith AFTER baptism.  No one has supernatural faith before baptism, desire or not.  Thus, it is possible for a catechumen to have the "necessity of (imperfect) faith" because this is a requirement for proper disposition.  
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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #146 on: August 25, 2022, 09:52:59 AM »
Quote from: sram on August 25, 2022, 09:41:39 AM
Why couldn't the OT martyrs and righteous, along with the good thief, be released from limbo into Heaven at the moment Christ died on the cross? The Divine Sacrifice, alone, saves us, so did it not save and release them into Heaven at the moment of His Consummation?

Again, Christ's Divine Naure always remained in Heaven while His Human Nature descended into limbo for three days. The righteous were joined with Christ (His Divine Nature) in Heaven that same day. To me, that makes more sense than having to wait a bunch of days before Christ's physical body ascended into Heaven. Even with God's Incarnation in Flesh on earth during those days/weeks before He ascended, He was also in Heaven. He had to be, for He is God.
You would be splitting the Divine nature from the human nature, if that were the case, which is, more or less, Nestorianism.

The good thief entered Heaven with the OT patriarchs later, once Christ ascended into Heaven.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #147 on: August 25, 2022, 10:00:08 AM »
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Why couldn't the OT martyrs and righteous, along with the good thief, be released from limbo into Heaven at the moment Christ died on the cross?

My understanding is, that Christ has 3 roles to fulfill. 
1) Redeemer - Christ's victory of the Cross and over sin, was not complete until the Resurrection, when He proved He was God. 
2) High Priest - Christ's mission was not fulfilled until the Ascension, after He had instructed the Apostles and sanctified them as Bishops.
3) Savior - He did not reconcile mankind to God the Father, until He Ascended into Heaven and re-opened the gates.  Christ is the only person who could repair Adam's sin and thus, it seems fitting that He would be the first person to enter Heaven, the "new, Spiritual Garden of Eden".

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The Divine Sacrifice, alone, saves us, so did it not save and release them into Heaven at the moment of His Consummation?

Being saved from sin is not the same thing as being allowed into heaven.  Redemption and Salvation are 2 different things.  The Cross redeemed our sins; the Ascension gave us the possibility for salvation/heaven.

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Again, Christ's Divine Naure always remained in Heaven while His Human Nature descended into limbo for three days.
I'm not sure where you're getting this idea.  Sounds protestant.

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The righteous were joined with Christ (His Divine Nature) in Heaven that same day. To me, that makes more sense than having to wait a bunch of days before Christ's physical body ascended into Heaven. Even with Christ's Human Incarnation on earth during those days/weeks before He ascended, He was also in Heaven. He had to be, for He is God.
Christ suspended the normal operation of His Divine nature while He was alive.  And He can be in multiple places at once, for God is everywhere, always, forever.  The fact remains that the gates of heaven being opened was related to "time" since salvation must be worked out on earth. 

The Church teaches us that the gates of heaven were ONLY opened on Ascension Thursday, thus, we must hold to this strict account and assume no saints entered before Christ.  Since they were already dead and no longer on earth, "waiting a bunch of days" doesn't mean anything because time doesn't exist in eternity.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #148 on: August 25, 2022, 10:03:26 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 25, 2022, 09:42:33 AM
:facepalm:  This is Fr Feeney's entire point.
Another distinction you are missing is the 2 different types of faith.  1) imperfect faith and 2) supernatural Faith.  God gives imperfect faith to those whom He wishes to find the Church and it is this faith which they must learn (on a human level) and also which they must have (in an imperfect way) in order to have the proper disposition for baptism. 


Imperfect faith is necessary BEFORE baptism.
AFTER baptism, one receives supernatural/perfect Faith.
SUPERNATURAL Faith is necessary for HEAVEN/Salvation.

One can have imperfect faith as a catechumen.  One can obtain imperfect justification (at least I think they can) by way of
1) imperfect faith (i.e. desire/knowledge of the baptism) and
2) contrition for sins.

You are confusing the two different types of faith and saying that the "necessity of faith" needed for baptism is supernatural.  That's impossible because you only get supernatural faith AFTER baptism.  No one has supernatural faith before baptism, desire or not.  Thus, it is possible for a catechumen to have the "necessity of (imperfect) faith" because this is a requirement for proper disposition. 
Who cares what Fr. Feeney's or anyone else's point is, we are discussing what Trent teaches as regards the justification of the unbaptized. Use Trent's point!

I'm not confusing anything, you are confusing faith with grace - which once again is off topic.  Faith is measured in degrees, i.e. by the amount you have, not in increments of truthness, supernaturalness or perfectness. A catechumen - or anyone really, can have the basics of true faith prior to baptism, who cares? Without the sacrament, justification cannot be effected.

Imperfect justification? What the heck is that? It suggests that only a portion of each sin is forgiven, or only certain sins are forgiven but others remain. Again - WHERE IS THAT IDEA TAUGHT IN TRENT?
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2022, 10:14:56 AM »
Stubborn, I have no idea what you're talking about.  You're not being specific enough.  Theology requires distinctions.
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