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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 42158 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2022, 10:55:17 AM »
It's not a problem to be justified only by desire, because justification is not the sacrament.  It's only grace.  It doesn't provide heaven/salvation.  It only provides forgiveness.

Scripture provides countless examples of pagans being justified (the repentant publican) who were not Israelites (and so who could not be saved) because they didn't believe in the Redeemer.

Only when justification is understood as = to salvation does such become heresy.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2022, 11:16:27 AM »
It's not a problem to be justified only by desire, because justification is not the sacrament. 
The reason that desire alone does not justify, is because the desire is not the sacrament. 


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2022, 11:23:51 AM »

Quote
The reason that desire alone does not justify, is because the desire is not the sacrament.
Desire (a true desire/vow by a catechumen) CAN justify; even Fr Feeney admits this.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2022, 11:25:40 AM »
No, why would I?

But I could, and would leave it off if it said: "There is no justification without the sacrament, or if the Pope solemnly declares you justified."

Do you see the difference?
I don't actually, maybe because English is my second language (I do see that it could be interpreted both ways). I would like to see someone analyze the Latin original of Trent. Anyone have a link?

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2022, 12:06:44 PM »
Mother of Mercy!

I am not the one ignoring anything - YOU are the ones ignoring the first part, which is the part that states justification cannot be effected without the sacrament.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but I was always led to believe that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament AND the desire for it. 

I read somewhere that the time leading up to Trent saw the clergy and people "forcing" Baptism on unwilling participants.  I had always assumed Trent was clarifying that in order to be justified, one must have a true desire to be baptized, AND receive the sacrament. 

To your point, Stubborn, I agree with you regarding the Sacrament = Justification.  However, the additional portion of the sentence "....or the desire thereof..." merely indicates the two points are required (for justification).  Meaning, one CANNOT receive the Sacrament of Baptism without the desire to receive it. 

OR, 

Can one receive the Sacrament of Baptism WITHOUT the desire to receive it?