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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 42083 times)

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Offline St Giles

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2022, 09:03:30 PM »
In Acts 10:44-48 it is mentioned that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the gentiles before they were baptized with water. How does that fit into this whole discussion?


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44 While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word.

45 And the faithful of the circuмcision, who came with Peter, were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.

46 For they heard them speaking with tongues, and magnifying God.

47 Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And what about NO infant baptisms, are they generally valid? I'm sure the SSPX would say they are. I'm getting a bit concerned now because I think I was baptized in the NO church before my parents found tradition. That would really suck to go through all this trouble of life and not be let into heaven if I manage to merit such a reward. Could 
BoD help someone who received a faulty baptism, like wasn't there 10,000 invalid baptisms discovered recently because of a wrong word?

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2022, 09:29:20 PM »
In Acts 10:44-48 it is mentioned that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the gentiles before they were baptized with water. How does that fit into this whole discussion?

And what about NO infant baptisms, are they generally valid? I'm sure the SSPX would say they are. I'm getting a bit concerned now because I think I was baptized in the NO church before my parents found tradition. That would really suck to go through all this trouble of life and not be let into heaven if I manage to merit such a reward. 
Them receiving the Holy Ghost in that instance doesn't mean they have been justified as with Baptism.

As for NO Baptisms, as long as the proper form and intent was used, it is valid. Literally anyone can perform a baptism provided they use the proper form "I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost", and intending to do what the Church does. So, unless whoever baptized you did and said something different, or did not have a proper intention (which is nullified by the simple fact they are carrying out a baptism, typically); then I wouldn't worry about it at all. I was baptized in the NO, and I don't doubt the validity of it, even though I do doubt by "confirmation" since the NO Bishop who did it was "ordained" in the 70s. (+Robert Morlino).

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Could BoD help someone who received a faulty baptism, like wasn't there 10,000 invalid baptisms discovered recently because of a wrong word?
As for this, how exactly would BoD help someone in this situation? If they have the knowledge that their baptism was invalid, then they need to have someone conditionally baptize them.

BoD advocates typically apply their argument to those who die either as a Catechumen (the traditional definition of BoD, referring to Ss. Thomas, Alphonsus, and Bellarmine) or because their emotionalism makes it hard for them to accept that a non-Christian of great natural virtue is in Hell (a denial of the dogma of EENS). What you are suggesting there is nothing but emotionalism/sentimentalism, which does not save.



Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2022, 10:24:22 PM »
The Mystical City of God, Venerable Mary of Agreda

CITY OF GOD PART II, THE TRANSFIXION BOOK VI

Chapter XXIV
OUR SAVIOR JESUS GOES TO THE BANKS OF THE JORDAN, WHERE HE IS BAPTIZED BY SAINT JOHN. SAINT JOHN HIMSELF THEN ASKS TO BE BAPTIZED BY THE SAVIOR.





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268.

When saint John had finished baptizing our Lord, the heavens opened and the Holy Ghost descended visibly in the form of a dove upon his head and the voice of his Father was heard: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matth. 3, 17). Many of the bystanders heard this voice, namely, those who were not unworthy of such a wonderful favor; they also saw the Holy Ghost descending upon the Savior. This was the most convincing proof which could ever be given of the Divinity of the Savior, as well on the part of the Father, who acknowledged Him his Son, as also in regard to the nature of the testimony given; for without any reserve was Christ manifested as the true God, equal to his eternal Father in substance and in perfection. The Father himself wished to be the first to testify to the Divinity of Christ in order that by virtue of his testimony all the other witnesses might be ratified. There was also another mystery in this voice of the eternal Father: it was as it were a restoration of the honor of his Son before the world and a recompense for his having thus humiliated Himself by receiving the Baptism of the remission of sins, though He was entirely free from fault and never could have upon Him the guilt of sin (Heb. 7, 26).





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269.

This act of humiliation in receiving Baptism in the company of those who were sinners, Christ our Redeemer offered up to the eternal Father as an act of acknowledgment of the inferiority of his human nature, which, in common with all the rest of the children of men, He had derived from Adam. By it He also instituted the sacrament of Baptism, which was to wash away the sins of the world through his merits. By thus humiliating Himself in this baptism of sins, He sought and obtained from the eternal Father a general pardon for all those who were to receive it; He freed them from the power of the demon and of sin, and regenerated them to a new existence, spiritual and supernatural as adopted sons of the Most High, brethren of their Redeemer and Lord. The past, present and future sins of men always remaining in the sight of the eternal Father, had prevented the effects of this Baptism; but Christ our Lord merited the application of this so easy and delightful remedy, so that the eternal Father was obliged to accept it in justice as a complete satisfaction according to all the requirements of his equity. Christ was also not deterred from thus securing this remedy by his foreknowledge of the abuse of holy Baptism by so many mortals in all ages and of its neglect by innumerable others. All these impediments and hindrances Christ our Lord removed by satisfying for their offenses, humiliating Himself and assuming the form of a sinner in his Baptism (Rom. 8, 3). This is the meaning of the words: suffer it to be so now for so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then in order to honor the incarnate Word and in recompense for his humiliation, and in order to approve of Baptism and establish its wonderful efficacy, the eternal Father gave forth his voice and the Holy Ghost descended. Thus was Christ proclaimed as the true Son of God, and all three Persons of the Holy Trinity ratified the sacramental rite of Baptism.






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The great Baptist was the one who reaped the greatest fruit from these wonders of holy Baptism; for he not only baptized his Redeemer and Master, saw the Holy Ghost and the celestial light descending upon the Lord together with innumerable angels, heard the voice of the Father and saw many other mysteries by divine revelation: but besides all this, he himself was baptized by the Redeemer. The Gospel indeed says no more than that he asked for it, but at the same time it also does not say that it was denied him; for, without a doubt, Christ after his own Baptism, conferred it also on his Precursor and Baptist. It was He that instituted this Sacrament afterwards as He made it a general law and enjoined the public ministration of it upon the Apostles after the Resurrection. As I shall relate later on, it was also the Lord who baptized his most holy Mother before its general promulgation, and He, on that occasion, established the form in which Baptism was to be administered. These facts were made known to me, and also that saint John was the first fruit of the Baptism of Christ our Lord and of the new Church, which He founded in this Sacrament. Through it the Baptist received the character of a Christian together with a great plenitude of grace, since he had not upon him original sin; for he had been justified by the Redeemer before he was born, as was said in its place. By the answer of the Savior: “Suffer it to be so now, that all justice be fulfilled,” He did not refuse, but He deferred saint John’s Baptism until He himself should have been baptized and have fulfilled the requirements of God’s justice. Immediately after his own Baptism He baptized saint John, gave him his blessing, and betook Himself to the desert.




Chapter XXIX

CHRIST RETURNS WITH THE FIVE FIRST DISCIPLES TO NAZARETH; HE BAPTIZES HIS MOST HOLY MOTHER; OTHER INCIDENTS DURING THIS TIME.




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The most blessed Lady also asked Him for the Sacrament of Baptism, which He had now instituted, and which He had promised Her before. In order that this might be administered with a dignity becoming as well the Son as the Mother, an innumerable host of angelic spirits descended from heaven in visible forms. Attended by them, Christ himself baptized his purest Mother. Immediately the voice of the eternal Father was heard saying: “This is my beloved Daughter, in whom I take delight.” The incarnate Word said: “This is my Mother, much beloved, whom I have chosen and who will assist Me in all my works.” And the Holy Ghost added: “This is my Spouse, chosen among thousands.” The purest Lady felt and received such great and numerous effects of grace in her soul, that no human words can describe them; for She was exalted to new heights of grace and her holy soul was made resplendent with new and exquisite beauty of heaven. She received the characteristic token impressed by this Sacrament, namely, that of the children of Christ in his holy Church. In addition to the ordinary effects of this Sacrament (outside of the remission of sins, of which She stood in no need), She merited especial graces on account of the humility with which She submitted to this Sacrament of purification. By it She accuмulated blessings like to those of her divine Son, with only this difference: that She received an increase of grace, which was not possible in Christ. Thereupon the humble Mother broke out in .a canticle of praise with the holy angels, and prostrate before her divine Son, She thanked Him for the most efficacious graces She had received in this Sacrament.



Chapter IV

THE DEVIL IS MUCH DISTURBED AND DISCONCERTED ON ACCOUNT OF THE MIRACLES OF CHRIST AND OF SAINT JOHN THE BAPTIST. HEROD SEIZES AND BEHEADS SAINT JOHN; SOME PARTICULARS OF HIS DEATH.



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The Redeemer of the world, departing from Jerusalem and traveling about in Judea for some time, pursued the work of preaching and performing miracles.

While He was baptizing and at the same time commissioning his disciples to baptize, as is recorded in the third and fourth chapter of Saint John’s Gospel, his Precursor also continued to baptize in Ainon on the banks of the Jordan near the city of Salem. But the Baptisms of the Lord and those of saint John were not of the same kind: for saint John continued to give only the baptism of water and of penance, while our Lord administered his own Baptism, that of real pardon of sins and justification, such as it is now in the Church, accompanied by the infusion of grace and of the virtues.

To the mysterious power and effects of the Baptism of Christ was moreover added the efficacy of his words and instructions confirmed by the wonder of his miracles. On this account more disciples and followers soon gathered around Christ than around saint John, in fulfillment of the words of the Baptist, that Christ must grow, while he must be diminished (John 3, 22).

At the Baptisms of the Lord his most holy Mother ordinarily was present and She beheld all the great results of this regeneration in the favored souls.


With the same gratitude as if She herself were receiving the benefits of the Sacrament, She gave thanks for them, breaking forth in canticles of praise and exercising heroic virtues as a thank offering to the Author of them. Thus in all these wonderful activities She gained for Herself incomparable and unheard of merits.





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When by divine permission Lucifer and his followers arose from the ruinous defeat which they had experienced at the triumph of Christ in the desert, and when they returned and saw the works of the most sacred humanity, divine Providence ordained, that, though always remaining ignorant of the principal mystery connected with Christ they should nevertheless see enough to lead to their entire discomfiture.

Lucifer therefore perceived the great results of the preaching, the miracles, the Baptism of Christ our Lord, and how by these means innumerable souls were withdrawn from his jurisdiction and from the shackles of sin in the reformation of their life. The same effects he recognized also in the preaching of saint John and in his baptism. He remained ignorant of the essential difference between these two preachers and their baptisms and at the same time had no doubts about the final overthrow of his dominion, if their activity should continue.

Hence, Lucifer could not but be full of fear and unrest. He knew well that he was too weak to resist the power of heaven, which he felt was exerted against him in these new Preachers and their doctrines. These considerations filled his proud mind with great apprehension, and therefore he called another meeting of the princes of darkness and said to them: “Strange things happen in the world during these years, and every day do they multiply, so that my fears lest the divine Word has come into the world according to the promise are growing more and more harrowing. I have searched the face of the whole earth and cannot find Him. But these two Men, who are preaching and deprive me every day of many souls, excite within me great misgivings; the one I could never overcome in the desert, and the other vanquished all of us, so that even now we are disheartened and crushed. If They continue as They have begun, all our triumphs will turn to confusion. They cannot Both be the Messias, and I cannot as yet be sure that either one of them is He; but to draw so many souls from a life of sin, is a work not equalled by any to this day. It supposes a new power, which we must investigate and trace to its source; and we must destroy these two Men. Follow me and assist me with all your strength, astuteness and sagacity; because otherwise they will frustrate our intentions.”

Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2022, 10:31:15 PM »
In Acts 10:44-48 it is mentioned that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the gentiles before they were baptized with water. How does that fit into this whole discussion?


A Practical Commentary On Holy Scripture by Frederick Justus Knecht D.D.

CHAPTER XCII

THE CONVERSION OF CORNELIUS


https://www.ecatholic2000.com/knecht/untitled-189.shtml#_Toc385594913



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The graces of Redemption can be received only through the Church. When our Lord Jesus revealed Himself to Saul, He might Himself have imparted to him all necessary instruction, and the grace of regeneration. He did not, however, do so, but sent to him the priest Ananias to teach him and baptize him. Our Blessed Lord acted in the same way regarding the conversion of Cornelius. He neither taught him directly Himself, nor by the mouth of an angel, but commanded him to send for Peter, and hear his words. Nor did the wonderful outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Cornelius and his companions make Baptism superfluous; for each one had to be baptized, and be thus received into the Church by her ministers. It is only by the exercise of the threefold—teaching, pastoral, and priestly—office of the Church, that men can be united and reconciled to our Lord Jesus Christ. He who despises and neglects the means of grace entrusted to the Church cannot receive grace; and he who says that the priesthood is unnecessary, falls into a most fatal error. St. Paul writes thus (1 Cor. 4:1): “Let a man so account of us as the ministers of God, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.”

Baptism is the first and most necessary of the Sacraments. The Holy Ghost descended visibly on Corneiius and his companions, and imparted to them the gift of tongues, in order to convince the Jєωιѕн Christians that the Gentiles need not first become Jєωs before they could receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost. This outpouring of the Holy Ghost prepared them for a worthy reception of holy Baptism, but it was only by their Baptism that they received the grace of regeneration, and became members of the Body of Christ, that is, His Church.

The good works of sinners. Cornelius was convinced of the nothingness of the pagan gods, and believed in One Invisible God, the Creator of heaven and earth. He also observed the moral law which God has written in the hearts of men, and which He revealed in the ten Commandments. He constantly prayed to God for guidance and knowledge of the truth; and he supplemented his prayers by works of mercy and almsgiving. Now, these good works of prayer and almsgiving were indeed supernatural good works, but still could not directly merit for Cornelius everlasting happiness, for only those good works which are performed in a state of sanctifying grace have meritorious value for heaven. Because Cornelius corresponded with divine grace, he received the further gift of faith, and by Baptism received sanctifying grace.

The following virtues are to be found in Cornelius:

1. He was religious, for he prayed continually, and honoured God, and according to his lights strove after religious truth.
2. He was conscientious, for, as far as his conscience taught him, he observed God’s commandments, obeyed the will of God, and kept himself from sin.
3. He was charitable and compassionate, working for the good of his neighbour. He practised not only the corporal but also the spiritual works of mercy, by inviting his friends to hear the words of Peter, and thus leading them to the true faith.
4. He was obedient to God’s command to send for Peter, and he thereby obtained salvation.
5. He was humble. If he had said to himself: “What can an uneducated fisherman like Peter do for me, a cultivated Roman?” he would not have obtained the gift of faith in Jesus Christ.
6. He believed the word of God, as it was announced to him by Peter, and therefore he received the gift of faith from the Holy Ghost, and the grace of Baptism.

Indifferentism in matters of faith. The sentence in Peter’s discourse: “In every nation he that feareth God and worketh justice is acceptable to Him”, has been interpreted by people either indifferent about, or weak in faith, to mean: “It is all the same what people believe, or what religious creed they profess, if only they live good lives.” Now is this principle, that religion and faith are matters of indifference, correct? No! it is utterly false and un-Christian, and that for these reasons: 1. Peter did not say: “Faith does not signify”; for he was, on the contrary, most anxious to convert Cornelius to the true faith; but his words meant rather that nationality does not signify—it does not matter what nation a man belongs to, for all nations are called to believe in Jesus Christ, and all persons, to whatever nation they may belong, are acceptable to Him, if, as Cornelius did, they keep the commandments and strive after a knowledge of the truth. Such men, being acceptable to God, are called by Him to believe the true faith, and thereby obtain salvation. 2. Peter, at the end of his discourse, expressly teaches that no one can obtain forgiveness of sins but through faith in Jesus (compare with this his words in chapter LXXXV: “There is no other Name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved”; Acts 4:12). 3. If no account was to be made of holding the true faith, St. Peter need not have preached to Cornelius, and need not have baptized him. 4. If it be a matter of indifference what faith a man holds, then the whole revelation of God would have been unnecessary, and it would have been quite superfluous for our Lord Jesus Christ to have come into the world, to have taught the true faith, and founded His Church. 5. The principle that it does not signify what a man believes is in direct opposition to the teaching of the Gospels, in which we find our Blessed Lord so often demanding faith in Himself and His doctrine (see, for example, chapter XV). There is only one true God, one Saviour, and one true faith, which Jesus Christ taught and bequeathed to the Church that He founded. Any indifference in matters of faith, or any admiration of it in others must come from a want of firm religious convictions, and is a grievous sin against faith.




Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2022, 10:31:48 PM »
So I hold that there is a BoB/BoD that can remit sin, i.e. can justify, but that it does not suffice for entry into the Kingdom, the Beatific Vision, since it is precisely the character of Baptism that enables human beings to receive this supernatural faculty to see God as He is, a capacity that we lack by nature.  I hold that martyrs who would die without the Sacrament would go to a place of perfect natural happiness, i.e. to a Limbo very similar to that of the infants.  Those who have BoD, depending on how perfect their desire and contrition are can have UP to a similar complete remission, but also varying degrees short of that.

This again is the distinction between justification (remission of sin) and salvation (entry into the Beatific Vision).  While BoD/BoB suffice for the former, it does not for the latter.

THIS ^^ makes sense, at least to me.