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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41952 times)

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2022, 07:59:27 PM »
And even IF there weren't any, Cekadism that holds that theologians are infallible is utterly absurd and has no basis in Catholic theology ... only in his own mind, and only when it's convenient.  Somehow they ceased to be infallible at Vatican II when they unanimously supported Vatican II and the NOM (with the single exception of Guerard des Lauriers).

Popes are infallible every time they pass wind ... well, except for the 1955 Holy Week Rites ... which were Modernist, defective, and harmful.

Pay no attention, of course, when for 700 years every theologian taught the erroneous position of St. Augustine on fate of infants who die unbaptized.

It is impious and grave sin to reject the unanimous teaching of theologians ... well, except when, after 1500 years of absolute unanimity that explicit faith in and knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity are necessary for salvation, a few Jesuit (and one Franciscan) came along and rejected that 1500 years of unanimous teaching with their innovation of Rewarder God theory.  That was OK for them to do, and, according to Father Cekada, they were right.  And just ignore the fact that the Holy Office explicitly rejected Rewarder God theory.  But when the "Holy Office" issued SH (most likely a fraud), darn it if you're not a heretic if you reject that.

Theologians are infallible when they want them to be, but not when they don't want them to be.
In addition, the uncontested embracing for centuries of unbaptized babies suffered the fires of hell.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2022, 08:29:19 PM »
So, let me get this straight: holding to the literal interpretation of John 3:5, clearly expounded by at least two Councils and the nigh-unanimity of the Fathers, is heretical.

But, reading into a Conciliar teaching while holding to the minority opinion of a few theologians, which by recent exaggerations contradicts John 3:5, is not heretical?

This is exactly why I never understood why there was a controversy surrounding EENS and Baptism. John 3:5 is self-evident. And only when a few opinions (no matter how holy or authoritative the theologian) got bounced around, then it became controversial to hold such an orthodox position?

There's no other explanation than madness and diabolical disorientation.



Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2022, 09:17:09 PM »
No one? Literally every traditionalist priest and bishop alive today believes that you can be saved without water baptism. Baptism of desire? Baptism of blood? Both are nonsense, yet everyone believes it. Hence why MHFM makes so many videos on that point.

It seems you misunderstood my comment.  I said "Water is necessary for the Sacrament of Baptism.  No one doubts that..."

Even the most ardent proponents of BoB and BoD do not, as I understand them, believe that either is the same as the actual Sacrament; i.e., Water Baptism ALONE -- not blood or desire -- is the Sacrament.  Do they hold that the effects are the same?  Clearly, but that is not the same as confounding them with the Sacrament itself.  I do not disagree that most in Traddieland hold unorthodox, insupportable ideas on this topic.  I just want to make sure we are doing our best to discuss the same terms with a similar understanding of their meaning.  Cheers.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2022, 09:26:11 PM »
Very clear indeed.
________________________

CHAPTER IV.  A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, – as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.  And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
__________________________

Also, I like it how the Feeneyites say that the common teachings of the theologians failed so soon after the Council of Trent, and even the Catechism of the Council of Trent failed, despite having St. Charles Borromeo as overseer of the catechism! I suppose St. Ambrose, Innocent III, and St. Thomas Aquinas failed as well, just being mere theologians! What a bunch of incompetents and Fr. Feeney was there to correct us all!:facepalm:
You use the term "Feeneyite" as if that was a pejorative but I don't think you understand Fr Feeney very well at all.  Fr Feeney's position agrees with the canon you have cited above.  Fr Feeney affirmed in his writings (books) that the translation to the state of grace (i.e. justification) is possible through the so-called Baptism of Desire.  He also affirmed with the Council of Trent that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.  He also affirmed with Trent that water is necessary for the validity of the Sacrament of Baptism.  He also affirmed with 3 different popes that there is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church.  So what crime are you trying to convict Fr Feeney of?

He was asked what would happen to those souls who had been justified by Baptism of Desire if they died before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism and he replied that he didn't know.  He speculated that God would make it possible for every one who was justified to also receive the Sacrament of Baptism.

I would argue along with Most Holy Family Monastery that Fr Feeney was in error about the possibility of being justified without (or before) receiving the Sacrament of Baptism.  Sacred Scripture and the teaching of the popes rules it out.  Pope Leo the Great explicitly condemned the idea that one could be justified apart from the Sacrament of Baptism.  Theologians have tried to make an analogy between BOD and the possibility of being justified apart from Sacramental Confession. However, that sacrament presupposes that the penitent has already received the Sacrament of Baptism.

You don't have any case against Fr Feeney.  He never denied any Catholic Dogma whatsoever and on top of that, he didn't even deny the pseudo-dogma of BOD.  MHFM does deny the pseudo-dogma but they have made a bullet-proof case for their position.  They will be vindicated in the end.

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2022, 09:44:11 PM »
Again, Ss. Alphonus and Thomas were talking specifically about Catechumens possibly being saved without water baptism.

So, if we limit ourselves to their specific criteria, then what?  Are we to think they just didn't understand the already-defined dogma?  I know this discussion frequently becomes contentious and unsavory, but I hope to keep it calm and charitable. 

The two men mentioned above certainly knew our holy Faith far better than we and undoubtedly knew that EENS is a dogma, pure and plain and simple.  Why would they even speculate about the matter as they did unless it makes sense that one can possibly receive the grace of the sacrament without receiving the sacrament itself?  This is an honest question seeking and honest answer.  Thank you in advance for treating it as such.

Please try to forget about the modern nonsense/insanity for a moment and focus upon two of the greatest men to ever live.  For my part, I am certain their minds and hearts were unspeakably superior to mine or any other modern's.

Are we to believe they were both wrong on such an important matter?  NO ONE realized that was so while reviewing their writings during their causes for beatification/canonization?  No one detected the error or said anything about it, for centuries?  One would hope that such an error would have been detected by someone, and the faithful would have been protected from ever seeing it.