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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 42085 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2022, 08:23:37 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2022, 07:33:14 AM
Why did you cut off the "or the desire for it" part?  It depends on how you read the "or the desire for it" part, eh, which you conveniently left off.

There were many theologians after Trent who made the justification vs. salvation distinction (similar to Father Feeney), saying, for instance, that infidels could be justified (under various conditions) but not saved.
I purposely left it off for the purpose of the question. If there is no justification without the sacrament, whatever is said after that does not change the teaching that without the sacrament there is no justification. How is this not clear?

If Trent would have said that "justification cannot be effected without the sacrament but can be effected with a desire", then your idea that a BOD can remit sin would be in agreement with Trent.

The teaching of Trent is clearly that there are two things that do not effect justification; 1) no sacrament and 2) a desire thereof....
1) When the sacrament is missing there is no justification.
2) When the sacrament is missing but a desire thereof is present, there is no justification......because the sacrament is missing.

This is why I asked you to explain your reasoning that "there is a BoB/BoD that can remit sin, i.e. can justify."



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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2022, 08:29:42 AM »

Quote
In any case, since you promote Bellarmine, do you limit BoD to formal catechumens as he did?
Right.  And for St Thomas, St Robert, Brownson, etc, when they used the term "catechumens" they meant those who:

a.  Had rejected their former religion and openly/explicitly asked to become a Catholic
b.  Were taking Catechumen lessons from a priest, to learn the Faith
c.  Were on the "baptism list" to receive the sacrament at the next opportunity.

For them, a catechumen was a very strict, specific type of person.  Everything they wrote about BOD would not apply to 99% of the cases that people come up with today (i.e. a dying "good" Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Protestant, etc).  None of these people are catechumens and none of these people could receive BOD.  At best, they could ask God forgiveness for their sins, and gain some part of Limbo.
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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2022, 08:32:54 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 24, 2022, 08:23:37 AM
I purposely left it off for the purpose of the question. If there is no justification without the sacrament, whatever is said after that does not change the teaching that without the sacrament there is no justification. How is this not clear?
What about this sentence?

There is no justification without the sacrament, except if the Pope solemnly declares you justified.

Would you say you can leave out the latter half of the sentence?
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2022, 08:56:12 AM »
Quote
I purposely left it off for the purpose of the question. If there is no justification without the sacrament, whatever is said after that does not change the teaching that without the sacrament there is no justification. How is this not clear?
You can't leave off that phrase.  There is historical, theological and Scriptural evidence that "desire" can obtain forgiveness of sins (i.e. justification).  The problem with modern-BOD'ers is, they superficially argue that "Well then, if you are in the state of grace, then you go to heaven, no?"  This over-simplifies the importance of Baptism (and it's multiple effects) and also over-simplifies what St Augustine, St Ambrose, St Thomas, St Bellarmine, St Alphonsus...and most importantly, Trent (etc etc etc) taught on the matter.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2022, 09:11:22 AM »
Quote from: ServusInutilisDomini on August 24, 2022, 08:32:54 AM
What about this sentence?

There is no justification without the sacrament, except if the Pope solemnly declares you justified.

Would you say you can leave out the latter half of the sentence?
No, why would I?

But I could, and would leave it off if it said: "There is no justification without the sacrament, or if the Pope solemnly declares you justified."

Do you see the difference?

 
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