Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41935 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2022, 09:47:34 PM »
https://www.hoyletutoring.com/baptism-of-desire/fundamental-error
There is a fundamental error in Hoyle's argument.  Sacred Scripture is not easily understood correctly.  For that reason, Our Lord also gave us the Catholic Church hierarchy (the pope, the bishops and the rest of the clergy) to guide us in understanding Our Lord's doctrines.  But solemnly defined dogmas are the clear interpretations of Sacred Scripture and Tradition.  We are bound to the literal interpretation of dogmas.  If theological interpretations, even by the most respected theologians, contradict the literal meaning of the dogma, we must reject those interpretations.  If that were not the case, how could any theologian ever be convicted of heresy?  If he is not bound by the literal meaning, then contradiction of that meaning is perfectly legal.  Or if the pope is free to promote interpretations which are contradictory to dogmas, then the traditionalist movement is 100% dead.  We must all become V2 Novus Ordites.  So the analogy to Protestant Fundamentalism is completely off-base.  Fr Feeney and MHFM are simply insisting that we must not contradict solemnly defined dogmas.  BOD does contradict solemnly defined dogmas.  Therefore we must reject it.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2022, 09:56:13 PM »
So, if we limit ourselves to their specific criteria, then what?  Are we to think they just didn't understand the already-defined dogma?  I know this discussion frequently becomes contentious and unsavory, but I hope to keep it calm and charitable.
Both of them wrote on various aspects and minutia of the Faith. In this case, the question of whether a Catechumen can still be saved if he dies right before Baptism. Therefore, it is in the realm of the theologians to rationalize how one may or may not be saved. But that is a very particular issue that is not expected to be believed by the wider faithful.

St. Alphonsus outlined the criteria of a knowledge and belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity as utterly necessary to be saved in such a scenario. I disagree with this conclusion because the Church has spoken that Catechumens are not members of the Body until Baptism. But that doesn't mean Ss. Alphonsus or Thomas are denying a dogma, just laying out the reasoned principles as to how it could be possible.

Yet, the problem arises here when laymen see this opinion and then latch onto it as dogmatic teaching just because esteemed theologians taught it. And it has since snow-balled into outright heresy with this idea that souls can be saved in false religions, but not by them, by merit of the Church. Which is nonsense, because this precludes Jєωs, Muslims, pagans, atheists, etc. as possibly saved without baptism because they have natural virtue and love of truth. Every single trad priest and bishop, I know of, believes this today.

So now, we have laymen already confused by the Crisis, imbibing such a pernicious error as if it were dogma and then turning around and attacking those who hold to the actual dogma of EENS and water baptism; simply because their priests and bishops themselves teach and believe it.


Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2022, 09:57:54 PM »
My trouble here is: where are the priests who disagree with them? Where have they been in the last 50 years? Even Fr. Feeney was just a voice in the wilderness who was widely dismissed. How can the entire hierarchy of the Church, Trad or otherwise, be wrong for this long?
As Ladislaus has pointed out many times here, the vast majority of theologians for the first 800 years of the Church believed that unbaptized infants went into the fires of Hell.  But then Peter Abellard rejected that idea and based his argument on Scripture and Tradition and the Church's theologians were gradually won over to his position which culminated in Limbo of the Infants becoming a solemnly defined dogma of the Church.  BOD has really only been around for 500 years and most of that time it was only for catechumens.  BOD for non-Catholics has been a thing for less than 300 years and it certainly has never been solemnly defined.  Any attempt to claim that Trent defined it is clearly an error.  Trent did not even use the term Baptism of Desire.  Trent only taught that the desire for the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for justification.  No one denies that.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2022, 10:07:04 PM »
Quote
There's no other explanation than madness and diabolical disorientation.
Also add feelings and sentimentality.  The biggest obstacle to the strict interpretation of EENS is human emotion.  "I can't believe that relative x is in hell because they weren't catholic.  They were a good person." 


It's also an attack on God's Goodness, Divine Providence and perfect Justice.  For He loves us more than we love ourselves, and He ordains each second of our life as planned before the world even existed, and He gives to each of us the perfect balance of mercy and justice in our life, to either accept or reject Him (and His Church).  If such a relative is damned, then it's their fault, not God's.  And if anyone is "sad" that the person is damned, no one can be more "sad" than the Heart of Jesus, who cried out for sinners in His agony on the Cross, when He said "I thirst".  God is infinitely sorrowful at the loss of souls to hell; no person can fathom it.  But He will not bend the rules to let sinners into heaven, for His perfect Justice requires that sinners be punished and the virtuous be rewarded.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2022, 10:22:19 PM »
Are we to believe they were both wrong on such an important matter?  NO ONE realized that was so while reviewing their writings during their causes for beatification/canonization?  No one detected the error or said anything about it, for centuries?  One would hope that such an error would have been detected by someone, and the faithful would have been protected from ever seeing it. 
Yes, they can be wrong. They don't have the charism of papal infallibility. St. Thomas was wrong about the Immaculate Conception, and that was in the Summa. It's okay that they were wrong. And even if they were, their position isn't some neo-Pelagian idea that men can be saved by the merits of the Church without being a member of the Body. Hence why they wouldn't have been condemned for holding such opinions.

There's even a possible way to interpret "baptism of desire" and "baptism of blood" without denying the Dogma of John 3:5. As BoD could simply be interpreted as perfect contrition for those validly baptized, in mortal sin, as it has a similar efficacious nature as baptism since you go straight to heaven. And BoB can basically be seen in the same light, excepting that the validly baptized are giving up their lives for Christ.

It's also okay to disagree with them. I personally disagree with St. Alphonsus' moral theology on "mental reservations" because it's still lying, no matter how you can to rationalize it. Does it downgrade it from a grave sin to a venial sin? Perhaps. But that still doesn't make it a good act, especially when Our Lord told us to let our yes be yes and our no be no.