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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41843 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #235 on: August 28, 2022, 01:51:06 PM »
So Cano says that infidels can be justified (have remission of Original Sin) without explicit faith but not salvation ... but Father Sullivan here finds Soto's position "more satisfying".  What does "satisfying" mean, that Fr. Sullivan likes it better?

This entire trend was motivated by the discovery of the New World, and this is the animus that has driven anti-EENS BoD speculation the entire time, this notion that it would be "unfair" of God not to allow all these infidels to be saved since they had never received the Gospel.

But what seems to be missing from their thinking is that the supernatural life and the beatific vision are not owed to anyone in justice, but are a free gift of God, nor, as St. Thomas taught in the context of Limbo, is it necessary for perfect happiness, since it's beyond the capacity of natural human perfection.

So if one applies that teaching of St. Thomas along with the justification/salvation distinction, where the former refers to justice and the latter to a free unmerited gift, the problem goes away.  Justification is in fact etymologically related to "justice".

This also illustrates what St. Ambrose would have meant by "washed" but not "crowned", meaning that sins is remitted ("washed") and yet there's no entry into the Kingdom ("crowning").

Pope St. Siricius taught dogmatically that even those desiring the Sacrament would ALL (each and every one) forfeit the "kingdom" if they did not actually receive the Sacrament before they died.

This distinction between justification and salvation is in fact the key to making sense of all this.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #236 on: August 28, 2022, 01:52:22 PM »
And yes, if one dies the state of justification it follows that they received the grace of final perseverance.

That's your opinion.  I disagree.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #237 on: August 28, 2022, 04:09:51 PM »
Father Sullivan on Cano:
Fr. Sullivan's reading into it there where he adds that "a person could reach the state of grace".  His first characterization of Cano was correct, that justification means a "remission of original sin", but that does not inherently translate into "state of [supernatural] grace" as Fr. Sullivan reads into it there.  I read Cano's original Latin (as well as deLugo) when XavierSem first posted the references.



Ladislaus,

Preliminarily to getting into this further, do you have the title of the Cano work that you read in the original Latin?

I know of another forum that Xavier is on, and I can ask him if he still has the references if necessary.
 


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #238 on: August 28, 2022, 05:48:28 PM »
Ladislaus,

Preliminarily to getting into this further, do you have the title of the Cano work that you read in the original Latin?

I know of another forum that Xavier is on, and I can ask him if he still has the references if necessary.


No.  I didn't save the information.  Just read it after he posted it.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #239 on: August 29, 2022, 12:29:57 AM »
Major: No man is justified without being born again (Trent)
Minor: The desire for baptism does not give the grace of rebirth (St. Alphonsus)
Conclusion: The desire for baptism can not effect justification without the laver of regeneration.

What do you object to in this, Lad?