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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41883 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #220 on: August 27, 2022, 11:29:04 PM »
I don't really accept that.  That would seem contrary to the Justice and Mercy of God.



I posted this once, but it must have been in a thread that XavierSem had started, and consequently was deleted when his account was taken down.


St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Church Militant (De Controversiis)


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Augustine distinguished Catechumens from the faithful, which other Fathers also do. Moreover, it is certain that the Church is the body of the faithful. Therefore, Catechumens do not have the right to any sacraments, nor to other things which are common to the universal Church. Therefore Catechumens do not pertain to the Church properly or in act. Therefore, how, you will ask, are they saved, if they are outside the Church? The author of the book on Ecclesiastical dogmas (cap. 74) clearly responds, that Catechumens are not saved. But this seems too harsh.



Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #221 on: August 27, 2022, 11:35:46 PM »
Here we go:



Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Question 14

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5014.htm#article2


Question 14. The quality of satisfaction




Article 5. Whether the aforesaid works avail for the mitigation of the pains of hell?




Objection 1. It would seem that the aforesaid works do not avail for the mitigation of the pains of hell. For the measure of punishment in hell will answer to the measure of guilt. But works done without charity do not diminish the measure of guilt. Neither, therefore, do they lessen the pains of hell.

Objection 2. Further, the pain of hell, though infinite in duration, is nevertheless finite in intensity. Now anything finite is done away with by finite subtraction. If therefore works done without charity canceled any of the punishment due for sins, those works might be so numerous, that the pain of hell would be done away with altogether: which is false.

Objection 3. Further, the suffrages of the Church are more efficacious than works done without charity. But, according to Augustine (Enchiridion cx), "the suffrages of the Church do not profit the damned in hell." Much less therefore are those pains mitigated by works done without charity.

On the contrary, Augustine also says (Enchiridion cx): "Whomsoever they profit, either receive a full pardon, or at least find damnation itself more tolerable."


Further, it is a greater thing to do a good deed than to omit an evil deed. But the omission of an evil deed always avoids a punishment, even in one who lacks charity. Much more, therefore, do good deeds void punishment.

I answer that, Mitigation of the pains of hell can be understood in two ways: first, as though one were delivered from the punishment which he already deserved, and thus, since no one is delivered from punishment unless he be absolved from guilt, (for an effect is not diminished or taken away unless its cause be diminished or taken away), the pain of hell cannot be mitigated by works done without charity, since they are unable to remove or diminish guilt. Secondly, so that the demerit of punishment is hindered; and thus the aforesaid works diminish the pain of hell—first because he who does such works escapes being guilty of omitting them—secondly, because such works dispose one somewhat to good, so that a man sins from less contempt, and indeed is drawn away from many sins thereby.


These works do, however merit a diminution or postponement of temporal punishment, as in the case of Achab (1 Kings 21:27, seqq.), as also the acquisition of temporal goods.

Some, however, say that they mitigate the pains of hell, not by subtracting any of their substance, but by strengthening the subject, so that he is more able to bear them. But this is impossible, because there is no strengthening without a diminution of passibility. Now passibility is according to the measure of guilt, wherefore if guilt is not removed, neither can the subject be strengthened.

Some again say that the punishment is mitigated as to the remorse of conscience, though not as to the pain of fire. But neither will this stand, because as the pain of fire is equal to the guilt, so also is the pain of the remorse of conscience: so that what applies to one applies to the other.

This suffices for the Replies to the Objections.




Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #222 on: August 27, 2022, 11:47:32 PM »
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I answer that, Mitigation of the pains of hell can be understood in two ways: first, as though one were delivered from the punishment which he already deserved, and thus, since no one is delivered from punishment unless he be absolved from guilt, (for an effect is not diminished or taken away unless its cause be diminished or taken away), the pain of hell cannot be mitigated by works done without charity, since they are unable to remove or diminish guilt.


It seems my understanding holds, there are no sins forgiven outside the Church.

There is no diminishment of punishment where there is no absolution from guilt.



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Secondly, so that the demerit of punishment is hindered; and thus the aforesaid works diminish the pain of hell—first because he who does such works escapes being guilty of omitting them—secondly, because such works dispose one somewhat to good, so that a man sins from less contempt, and indeed is drawn away from many sins thereby.


It seems good deeds done in a state of mortal sin do not have an eternal reward.

Situations that require a good deed being done, need to be done, lest a person sin by omission, and such good deeds can draw one away from other sins.

Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #223 on: August 27, 2022, 11:53:10 PM »
https://isidore.co/aquinas/english/Creed.htm


THE APOSTLES' CREED by St. Thomas Aquinas, translated by Joseph B. Collins, 1939

PROLOGUE

What Is Faith?




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The Nature and Effects of Faith.—The first thing that is necessary for every Christian is faith, without which no one is truly called a faithful Christian. Faith brings about four good effects. The first is that through faith the soul is united to God, and by it there is between the soul and God a union akin to marriage. “I will espouse you in faith” [Hosea 2:20]. When a man is baptized the first question that is asked him is: “Do you believe in God?” This is because Baptism is the first Sacrament of faith. Hence, the Lord said: “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved” [Mk 16:16].Baptism without faith is of no value.

Indeed, it must be known that no one is acceptable before God unless he have faith. “Without faith it is impossible to please God”[Heb 11:6]. St. Augustine explains these words of St. Paul, “All that is not of faith is sin” [Rom 14:23], in this way: “Where there is no knowledge of the eternal and unchanging Truth, virtue even in the midst of the best moral life is false.”


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #224 on: August 28, 2022, 07:25:38 AM »

It seems my understanding holds, there are no sins forgiven outside the Church.

There is no diminishment of punishment where there is no absolution from guilt.

It seems good deeds done in a state of mortal sin do not have an eternal reward.

Situations that require a good deed being done, need to be done, lest a person sin by omission, and such good deeds can draw one away from other sins.

I find your view of things to be perverse, entirely incompatible with the Mercy and the Justice of God.  That's because you're missing some crucial distinctions ... that I tried to outline with my example.

1) there is in fact a distinction between the guilt of sin and the debt of justice for sin (we constantly make this distinction when we say that you can be forgiven in confession and yet still owe a debt).  If I leave this life owing someone $1,000 because I stole it during my life, I have to pay that debt back, whether in Purgatory (if I have been forgiven) or in Hell (if I have not been forgiven).  So the forgiveness and the amount of "debt" owed by sin are distinct and separable.

2) Those in mortal sin do not have an "eternal reward" ... in terms of being able to acquire SUPERNATURAL merit for their good deeds.  This does not mean they cannot offset the temporal debt of sin.  "Eternal reward" refers to the supernatural merit that can be acquired by meritorious actions.

Thus, my example, where the one person never pays back the stolen $1,000, but the other does, and then some.  Per your view, both would suffer exactly the same for all eternity.  I find that a perverse view that's offensive to God's justice and His Mercy.  Why should these two be treated the same?

You're missing the distinction between the supernatural and the natural aspect of sin.  Applying that very real distinction solves the dilemma.

And I think that this incorrect view of hell, eternity, punishment due to sin, etc. is what causes a lot of people to have an aversion to EENS dogma.

I hold that natural virtue and natural goodness can offset the natural debt of sin that's owed, and that the sensible suffering experienced in hell is due to the and is proportionate to this natural debt of sin.

People recoil at the thought that someone could spend his life doing good deeds, helping people, being generous, etc. and then be subjected to the exact same suffering in hell as someone who, say, committed the exact same sins as this person, except that they did no such good deeds.

There's this confusion between the supernatural and the natural that cause a lot of confusion with regard to EENS dogma, and this actually caused the issue with St. Augustine's original notion that there's no such thing as a Limbo where people can have perfect natural happiness.  But St. Thomas finally understood that the supernatural aspect (since it is not within our natural capacity) does not compromise the potential for perfect natural happiness in a place like Limbo, since it is not the "lack of a due good".

So, the post-Tridentine theologians explored this distinction, and you saw it manifested in Dante where he had a "noble" infidel like Saladin placed in Limbo.  He also had some of the pagan philosophers there.  This here is Gregory nαzιanzen's distinction between people who are not good enough for glory but not bad enough for punishment.