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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41900 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #215 on: August 27, 2022, 09:42:37 PM »
Were the writings in the Supplement portion of the Summa written by St. Thomas, and only compiled by another?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #216 on: August 27, 2022, 09:48:26 PM »
So, there are two aspects of sin, the guilt of sin and the debt of sin.

Let's say I steal $1,000 from someone.  I got to Confession and receive forgiveness.  Yet the debt of the sin remains.

On the other hand, I could steal the $1,000, never Confess and receive remission for the sin, but return the $1,000.  In this case I no longer owe the debt, but I also have not had the guilt of the sin remitted.

Here's the hypothetical I posed before:

You have two people, neither of whom are Catholic, and so eventually end up not being saved.

Person #1 steals $1,000.  But he later regrets it, returns the money, and then even spends the rest of his life giving all his possessions away to the poor (beyond a bare minimum that he lives off of).

Person #2 steals $1,000 and keeps it, never returns it.

Let's say that these are the only sins ever committed by these two individuals (or else all their other sins in life were exactly equal).

With your understanding of there being no remission of sin outside the Church, Person #1 and Person #2 would suffer the exact same punishment in hell, and there would be no mitigation of the suffering for person #1 at all, since none of the good things he did count for anything.

I don't really accept that.  That would seem contrary to the Justice and Mercy of God.

Now, neither one would be "forgiven" in that they never had supernatural contrition, but the "punishment" due to each one would differ greatly, and I believe that this is the key to the distinction washing and remission.


Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #217 on: August 27, 2022, 09:54:44 PM »
Person #1 steals $1,000.  But he later regrets it, returns the money, and then even spends the rest of his life giving all his possessions away to the poor (beyond a bare minimum that he lives off of).

Person #2 steals $1,000 and keeps it, never returns it.

Let's say that these are the only sins ever committed by these two individuals (or else all their other sins in life were exactly equal).

With your understanding of there being no remission of sin outside the Church, Person #1 and Person #2 would suffer the exact same punishment in hell, and there would be no mitigation of the suffering for person #1 at all, since none of the good things he did count for anything.


I think person # 2 would suffer a greater punishment, and person # 1 would suffer a lesser punishment.

I don't know what to say in regards to the rewarding of natural virtue.

Right now, I'm trying to find what others have written regarding any reward for natural virtue.

Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #218 on: August 27, 2022, 11:10:29 PM »
Denzinger


https://patristica.net/denzinger/#n1000



Quote
ST. PIUS V 1566-1572

Errors of Michael du Bay (BAII) *

[Condemned in the Bull "Ex omnibus afflictionibus," Oct. 1, 1567]



(. . .)


1025   25. All works of infidels are sins, and the virtues of philosophers are vices.




Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #219 on: August 27, 2022, 11:16:26 PM »
Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Question 14

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5014.htm#article2


Question 14. The quality of satisfaction


Article 2. Whether, when deprived of charity, a man can make satisfaction for sins for which he was previously contrite?





Objection 1. It would seem that if a man fall into sin after being contrite for all his sins, he can, now that he has lost charity, satisfy for his other sins which were already pardoned him through his contrition. For Daniel said to Nabuchodonosor (Daniel 4:24): "Redeem thou thy sins with alms." Yet he was still a sinner, as is shown by his subsequent punishment. Therefore a man can make satisfaction while in a state of sin.

Objection 2. Further, "Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love or hatred" (Ecclesiastes 9:1). If therefore one cannot make satisfaction unless one be in a state of charity, it would be impossible to know whether one had made satisfaction, which would be unseemly

Objection 3. Further, a man's entire action takes its form from the intention which he had at the beginning. But a penitent is in a state of charity when he begins to repent. Therefore his whole subsequent satisfaction will derive its efficacy from the charity which quickens his intention.

Objection 4. Further, satisfaction consists in a certain equalization of guilt to punishment. But these things can be equalized even in one who is devoid of charity. Therefore, etc.

On the contrary, "Charity covereth all sins" (Proverbs 10:12). But satisfaction has the power of blotting out sins. Therefore it is powerless without charity.

Further, the chief work of satisfaction is almsdeeds. But alms given by one who is devoid of charity avail nothing, as is clearly stated 1 Corinthians 13:3, "If I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor . . . and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." Therefore there can be no satisfaction with mortal sin.

I answer that, Some have said that if, when all a man's sins have been pardoned through contrition, and before he has made satisfaction for them, he falls into sin, and then makes satisfaction, such satisfaction will be valid, so that if he die in that sin, he will not be punished in hell for the other sins.

But this cannot be, because satisfaction requires the reinstatement of friendship and the restoration of the equality of justice, the contrary of which destroys friendship, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. ix, 1,3). Now in satisfaction made to God, the equality is based, not on equivalence but rather on God's acceptation: so that, although the offense be already removed by previous contrition, the works of satisfaction must be acceptable to God, and for this they are dependent on charity. Consequently works done without charity are not satisfactory.

Reply to Objection 1. Daniel's advice meant that he should give up sin and repent, and so make satisfaction by giving alms

Reply to Objection 2. Even as man knows not for certain whether he had charity when making satisfaction, or whether he has it now, so too he knows not for certain whether he made full satisfaction: wherefore it is written (Sirach 5:5): "Be not without fear about sin forgiven." And yet man need not, on account of that fear, repeat the satisfaction made, if he is not conscious of a mortal sin. For although he may not have expiated his punishment by that satisfaction, he does not incur the guilt of omission through neglecting to make satisfaction; even as he who receives the Eucharist without being conscious of a mortal sin of which he is guilty, does not incur the guilt of receiving unworthily.

Reply to Objection 3. His intention was interrupted by his subsequent sin, so that it gives no virtue to the works done after that sin.

Reply to Objection 4. Sufficient equalization is impossible both as to the Divine acceptation and as to equivalence: so that the argument proves nothing.