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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 34507 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #195 on: August 27, 2022, 08:03:38 PM »
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    • http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch5.htm


    Council of Trent, Session V:



    Quote
    CONCERNING ORIGINAL SIN

    FIRST DECREE


    5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, harmless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven.




    http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm


    Session VI




    Quote
    CHAPTER IV.

    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.







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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #196 on: August 27, 2022, 08:03:49 PM »
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    • Initial justification through Baptism is a rebirth, or a second birth.  There's a broader sense for justification apart from this justification discussed in Trent that is a natural justification rather than a supernatural one.

    Supernatural life is on top of the natural life, and one can be naturally right with God without having been elevated to the supernatural life, which is a free gift of God and not owed to nature.

    If God had created Adam and Eve without any intention to elevate them to the supernatural state, they would still have been in a state of justice before their fall, but it would have been a natural, rather than a supernatural, justice.

    "Adoption as the sons of God" refers specifically to being adopted into the inner life of God, i.e. as adopted to within the life of the Holy Trinity, the supernatural life.

    You guys read and put stuff in bold but lack understanding.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #197 on: August 27, 2022, 08:09:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on August 26, 2022, 10:06:30 AM

    It's speaking of the justification of the impious and their translation to a "state of grace" in the new dispensation since the promulgation of the Gospel, period.

    Agreed, since the promulgation of the Gospel . . .

    in other words, FULL STOP
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #198 on: August 27, 2022, 08:10:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 27, 2022, 08:03:49 PM
    If God had created Adam and Eve without any intention to elevate them to the supernatural state, they would still have been in a state of justice before their fall, but it would have been a natural, rather than a supernatural, justice.

    I think it would be more apt to say a state of innocence.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #199 on: August 27, 2022, 08:12:21 PM »
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    • You can "agree" all you want, but the post-Tridentine theologians did not agree that the only sense of the term justification refers to entering a state of grace, supernatural life.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #200 on: August 27, 2022, 08:15:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 27, 2022, 08:12:21 PM
    You can "agree" all you want, but the post-Tridentine theologians did not agree that the only sense of the term justification refers to entering a state of grace, supernatural life.

    Xavier seems to have had three accounts: Nishant, Nishant Xavier, and XavierSem


    Whatever he posted under the XavierSem account is gone.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #201 on: August 27, 2022, 08:19:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on August 27, 2022, 08:10:56 PM
    I think it would be more apt to say a state of innocence.

    Now you're just throwing words out there, and this is semantics.  There's natural state of being "right with God" (that you term "innocence" and then the supernatural state where one is not only "right with God" (whereby one is elevated about natural justice to the supernatural life).

    Call it what you will, but there's a real distinction here, and the post-Tridentine theologians applied the term justification also to natural justification, something at which infidels could arrive without necessarily being in a state of grace.

    This distinction was broadly known, and is why Dante, for instance, put the Muslim Saladin in Limbo.

    This would also be the state in which, say, unbaptized martyrs would be, having all the natural punishment or poena of their sins removed, and yet unable to become the "adopted sons of God," i.e. have supernatural grace and enter into the life of the Holy Trinity.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #202 on: August 27, 2022, 08:28:05 PM »
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    • Regardless of the disagreement of terms, those of you who believe that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, but reject the justification/salvation distinction of Father Feeney, what say you?  Do you believe that an unbaptized martyr would go to hell, to suffer for all eternity?

    You could argue that God would never allow such a thing, but St. Ambrose seems to disagree, saying that unbaptized martyrs are "washed" but not "crowned" (and this presumes that there were some).  So, in his famous comments about Valentinian, construed by BoD supporters as meaning Valentinian could have been saved without actual reception of Baptism, St. Ambrose is actually making the same distinction of washed but not crowned.

    What does it mean to be washed and yet not crowned?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #203 on: August 27, 2022, 08:32:21 PM »
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    • St. Gregory nαzιanzen, who explicitly rejected salvation by a BoD, also said that there were some who, while not good enough for "glory" (aka beatific vision, entry into heaven) were also not bad enough to be punished.

    Our Lord taught that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but that those who do not believe will be condemned.

    What about those who believe and are not baptized?  They'd be neither saved, nor condemned, according to what Our Lord taught here.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #204 on: August 27, 2022, 08:33:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 27, 2022, 08:19:12 PM
    Call it what you will, but there's a real distinction here, and the post-Tridentine theologians applied the term justification also to natural justification, something at which infidels could arrive without necessarily being in a state of grace.

    This distinction was broadly known, and is why Dante, for instance, put the Muslim Saladin in Limbo.



    In other words the soul of an adult person dies with only original sin on their soul, having perhaps avoided mortal sin in their lifetime.

    However, I am much more inclined to believe the position of St. Thomas:




    St. Thomas Aquinas

    Quaestiones disputatae de veritate

    Question Fourteen: Faith

    ARTICLE XI: In the eleventh article we ask: Is it necessary to believe explicitly?

    http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/g3i.htm


    Quote
    Quote
    1. We should not posit any proposition from which an untenable conclusion follows. But, if we claim that explicit belief is necessary for salvation, an untenable conclusion follows. For it is possible for someone to be brought up in the forest or among wolves, and such a one cannot have explicit knowledge of any matter of faith. Thus, there will be a man who will inevitably be damned. But this is untenable. Hence, explicit belief in something does not seem necessary.

    Answers to Difficulties

    1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).








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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #205 on: August 27, 2022, 08:45:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 27, 2022, 08:19:12 PM
    This would also be the state in which, say, unbaptized martyrs would be, having all the natural punishment or poena of their sins removed, and yet unable to become the "adopted sons of God," i.e. have supernatural grace and enter into the life of the Holy Trinity.


    I cannot reconcile that with my understanding that the Church teaches the forgiveness of sins as only found within the Church.

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #206 on: August 27, 2022, 09:01:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 27, 2022, 08:28:05 PM
    What does it mean to be washed and yet not crowned?


    Don't each of the Just receive a crown, and the greater the extent of the state of sanctification the greater will be the crown that is awarded?

    Perhaps not crowned with the crown of martyrs.

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #207 on: August 27, 2022, 09:02:49 PM »
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    • St. Thomas only held that they would receive the faith ... but then he believed in Baptism of Desire.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #208 on: August 27, 2022, 09:05:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 27, 2022, 09:02:49 PM
    St. Thomas only held that they would receive the faith ... but then he believed in Baptism of Desire.

    Yes, and great is my doubt that Saladin never committed a mortal sin.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
    « Reply #209 on: August 27, 2022, 09:10:18 PM »
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    • I believe any adult that strives to avoid grievous sin will be given a chance to convert to the faith.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
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