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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 42064 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #195 on: August 27, 2022, 08:03:38 PM »
http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch5.htm


Council of Trent, Session V:



Quote
CONCERNING ORIGINAL SIN

FIRST DECREE


5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, harmless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven.




http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm


Session VI




Quote
CHAPTER IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.








Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #196 on: August 27, 2022, 08:03:49 PM »
Initial justification through Baptism is a rebirth, or a second birth.  There's a broader sense for justification apart from this justification discussed in Trent that is a natural justification rather than a supernatural one.

Supernatural life is on top of the natural life, and one can be naturally right with God without having been elevated to the supernatural life, which is a free gift of God and not owed to nature.

If God had created Adam and Eve without any intention to elevate them to the supernatural state, they would still have been in a state of justice before their fall, but it would have been a natural, rather than a supernatural, justice.

"Adoption as the sons of God" refers specifically to being adopted into the inner life of God, i.e. as adopted to within the life of the Holy Trinity, the supernatural life.

You guys read and put stuff in bold but lack understanding.


Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #197 on: August 27, 2022, 08:09:08 PM »

It's speaking of the justification of the impious and their translation to a "state of grace" in the new dispensation since the promulgation of the Gospel, period.

Agreed, since the promulgation of the Gospel . . .

in other words, FULL STOP

Offline trad123

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #198 on: August 27, 2022, 08:10:56 PM »
If God had created Adam and Eve without any intention to elevate them to the supernatural state, they would still have been in a state of justice before their fall, but it would have been a natural, rather than a supernatural, justice.

I think it would be more apt to say a state of innocence.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #199 on: August 27, 2022, 08:12:21 PM »
You can "agree" all you want, but the post-Tridentine theologians did not agree that the only sense of the term justification refers to entering a state of grace, supernatural life.