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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 42094 times)

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #165 on: August 25, 2022, 03:38:34 PM »
Just focusing on Trent doesn't solve anything.  My purpose is trying to understand history so I can show others WHY what Trent said is orthodox and agrees with St Augustine, St Thomas etc.
That right there is the entire problem. Too many people are missing the forest for the trees on this subject. One has to wonder if someone truly has the Catholic Faith if they are going to overlook the definitions of a Council, let alone Trent, in order to reconcile their theory. (Speaking generally, of course, not of you or Lad here).

That's why it's important to cite Vatican I, like the Dimonds always do, regarding this issue. Because Vatican I came about due to centuries of people reading into Magisterial teachings to find some sort of loophole to support their errors.

Quote
Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2022, 04:48:49 PM »
This isn't about deeper meaning or recession.  It's about the fact that the text itself can in theory be read either way.  We have several Doctors, and even Father Feeney himself, who read the without the laver or the desire as without the laver or else at least the desire.  This text is not really 100% clear, or otherwise there wouldn't be any disagreement about its meaning.

I can't write a note without paper or a pencil.
We can't have the wedding without the bride or the groom.

... and

I can't get to school without a car or a bicycle.
I can't get this job without a diploma or a certificate.


We have St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus, and even Father Feeney taking it the second way.

What we're debating here ... and we're, quite frankly, wasting our time about ... is Feeneyism vs. Dimondism.  Neither group believes that there can be salvation without the Sacrament of Baptism.

So why are we wasting our time on this and why is Stubborn getting his panties all bunched up?  He's arguing with us as if we were among the BoD is dogma crowd.

This is an academic debate among those who all agree that salvation is not possible without the actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

This thing is stupid and needs to stop.

In between the "understand the dogma as it's written" and "interpret it away into meaninglessness" ... there is the in-between problem of how to actually understand the "dogma as it's written".

We have Stubborn over here claiming that it's possible for the Catholic Church to go corrupt, and he's basing that somehow on his reading dogma "as it's written".

It's one step away from saying "read Scripture as it's written".  There is some room for things to be understood properly and to be misunderstood.


Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #167 on: August 25, 2022, 07:29:16 PM »
We have St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus, and even Father Feeney taking it the second way.
We have an advantage over St. Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus, because they didn't have Vatican 1. Meaning it wasn't so clear which decrees were infallible and required the assent of Faith, and which ones did not. Perhaps they mistakenly thought Pope Innocent II's BOD teaching was infallible, and they had to reconcile that with Trent. Now we know it wasn't, and is in fact wrong. Those examples you provided aren't comparable, because they fail to take into account the context of Session 6 chap. 4, particularly "AS IT IS WRITTEN, John 3:5", and the rest of the chapters of the session, which completely ignore "BOD". If a text is ambiguous, we should base our understanding of it on the context.

St. Alphonsus also taught that BOD does not provide the grace of spiritual rebirth/baptism, which Trent says everyone must have to be justified.

Here is Trent's teaching:

Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 3: “But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, SO UNLESS THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST THEY WOULD NEVER BE JUSTIFIED, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”

Here is the teaching of St. Alphonsus that BOD does not remit the liability of punishment due to sin, meaning BOD does not give someone a spiritual rebirth, without which no man can be justified:

St. Alphonsus: “Baptism of blowing is perfect conversion to God through contrition or through the love of God above all things, with the explicit desire, or implicit desire of the true river of baptism whose place it supplies (iuxta Trid. Sess. 14, c. 4) with respect to the remission of the guilt, but not with respect to the character to be imprinted, nor with respect to the full liability of the punishment to be removed: it is called of blowing because it is made through the impulse of the Holy Spirit, who is called a blowing.” (St. Alphonsus, Moral Theology, Volume V, Book 6, n. 96)


So, do you agree with St. Alphonsus that BOD does not give the grace of a spiritual rebirth? Would you then hold that a man can be justified without being born again in Christ, contrary to Sess. 6, Chap. 3?

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #168 on: August 25, 2022, 07:46:44 PM »
Just focusing on Trent doesn't solve anything.  My purpose is trying to understand history so I can show others WHY what Trent said is orthodox and agrees with St Augustine, St Thomas etc.  There's so many people who read Trent and then re-interpret it with non-infallible sources (i.e. catechism), which have been liberalized.  I'm trying to ADD to Trent, from infallible sources (or at least, non liberalized sources), in order to show a consistent teaching, so that the non-infallible sources (i.e. catechism) will be proven wrong.

That's the only way to disprove BOD, because there's too many non-infallible sources which muddy the waters.  And Trent is not detailed enough, imo.  If it was, then BOD wouldn't exist.

Another good source to refute "justification by the desire for baptism", is this letter, which states that the spirit of sanctification (justification) is inseparable and indivisible from the water of baptism.

Pope St. Leo the Great, dogmatic letter to Flavian, Council of Chalcedon, 451: “Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood (1 Pet. 1:2)… For there are three who give testimony – Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. (1 Jn. 5:4-8) IN OTHER WORDS, THE SPIRIT OF SANCTIFICATION AND THE BLOOD OF REDEMPTION AND THE WATER OF BAPTISM. THESE THREE ARE ONE AND REMAIN INDIVISIBLE. NONE OF THEM IS SEPARABLE FROM ITS LINK WITH THE OTHERS.

The idea that a man can be justified by simply desiring to be baptized, is to separate and divide the "spirit of sanctification" from "the water of baptism."

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2022, 11:07:32 PM »
Another good source to refute "justification by the desire for baptism", is this letter, which states that the spirit of sanctification (justification) is inseparable and indivisible from the water of baptism.

Pope St. Leo the Great, dogmatic letter to Flavian, Council of Chalcedon, 451: “Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood (1 Pet. 1:2)… For there are three who give testimony – Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. (1 Jn. 5:4-8) IN OTHER WORDS, THE SPIRIT OF SANCTIFICATION AND THE BLOOD OF REDEMPTION AND THE WATER OF BAPTISM. THESE THREE ARE ONE AND REMAIN INDIVISIBLE. NONE OF THEM IS SEPARABLE FROM ITS LINK WITH THE OTHERS.

The idea that a man can be justified by simply desiring to be baptized, is to separate and divide the "spirit of sanctification" from "the water of baptism."

I think that there's a misunderstanding of the term justification going on here, as justification is not sanctification.  As for this quote here, the BoDers would point out the word "effected by".  Certainly even with BoD, the Sacrament of Baptism is posited as the cause of the justification ... by those Doctors believed in BoD and were familiar with this quotation.