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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 42106 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #155 on: August 25, 2022, 11:04:14 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 25, 2022, 10:42:01 AM
Trent is not the end all, be all.  We don't belong to the "Church of Trent".  There's more to Catholicism than just this council.  In this case, you're too narrow focused.
Amazing.

I am attempting to stay with the topic of this thread and trying to stay narrow focused. 

Trent, arguably the greatest of all the Councils of the Church did not leave anything about the justification of the unbaptized unfinished. It's all in there.

I will keep this as simple as possible and ask a few simple questions,
1) What does this phrase mean to you:
 [justification] cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration.

If it does not mean no sacrament = no justification, then explain what it does mean.

2) If you answered it means no sacrament = no justification, then explain why that meaning changes with the addition of "or the desire thereof, as it is written...."




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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #156 on: August 25, 2022, 12:00:29 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on August 25, 2022, 10:35:41 AM
No matter how one wants to spin "or the desire thereof", you cannot simply ignore Trent saying that justification is impossible without the sacrament.

As usual, your thinking is clear as mud.  We've had several canonized Church Doctors disagree with you that justification is impossible without the (ACTUAL RECPETION OF) the Sacrament.  Even in their thinking, it cannot happen without the Sacrament, as the Sacrament is necessary even for justification by BoD.

You're entitled to disagree and read the "or desire thereof" as you do, but for you to falsely pretend that your understanding is objectively true, while several Doctors disagree, that takes some real hubris.  But then, of course, with your particular flavor of R&R, you've made yourself into the ultimate rule of faith, so this certainty of faith that you impose on it comes from your own judgment.

If it's so obvious what Trent meant by that passage, explain how several Church Doctors reject your interpretation.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #157 on: August 25, 2022, 12:41:15 PM »

Quote
Trent, arguably the greatest of all the Councils of the Church did not leave anything about the justification of the unbaptized unfinished.
Trent's concern was primarily the protestant heresies.  It did not cover everything related to justification.  It only provided us with a few pages on the topic.



Quote
It's all in there.
Not even close.  Trent is the Holy Ghost speaking to us, who ALSO spoke to use in Scripture and in other councils (and through saints).  We must look at all of it together, for topics which are still hazy, due to modern day errors which have arisen.
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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2022, 12:43:55 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 25, 2022, 12:41:15 PM
Not even close.  Trent is the Holy Ghost speaking to us, who ALSO spoke to use in Scripture and in other councils (and through saints).  We must look at all of it together, for topics which are still hazy, due to modern day errors which have arisen.
Okay, so where does Scripture and what Councils advocate for the form of justification you are talking about?
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2022, 12:45:54 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 25, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
As usual, your thinking is clear as mud.  We've had several canonized Church Doctors disagree with you that justification is impossible without the (ACTUAL RECPETION OF) the Sacrament.  Even in their thinking, it cannot happen without the Sacrament, as the Sacrament is necessary even for justification by BoD.

You're entitled to disagree and read the "or desire thereof" as you do, but for you to falsely pretend that your understanding is objectively true, while several Doctors disagree, that takes some real hubris.  But then, of course, with your particular flavor of R&R, you've made yourself into the ultimate rule of faith, so this certainty of faith that you impose on it comes from your own judgment.

If it's so obvious what Trent meant by that passage, explain how several Church Doctors reject your interpretation.
Old wind bag.

Try answering the questions by referencing the teaching of Trent, do that and your own novel idea will be instantly shot down in flames. Which in all likely hood is the reason why you will continue to act as if those questions do not exist. 

I will try to explain how several of the Church Doctors reject my reading of Trent after you give answers to questions I asked.
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