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Author Topic: Is this an error?  (Read 2729 times)

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Is this an error?
« on: November 21, 2016, 04:48:15 PM »
"Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."

Is this an error? It seems to me most traditional Catholics believe this and do not condemn this as an error. They believe men in any religion can have an implicit faith and save their souls without believing in the Catholic religion, though they are saved despite of their religion and not because of their religion.

Online Stubborn

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Is this an error?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2016, 04:59:35 AM »
Quote from: Matto
"Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."

Is this an error? It seems to me most traditional Catholics believe this and do not condemn this as an error. They believe men in any religion can have an implicit faith and save their souls without believing in the Catholic religion, though they are saved despite of their religion and not because of their religion.


It is one of the condemned errors from Pope Pius IX's "Syllabus of condemned errors".

Why would anyone belong to a church if he did not believe that church is the instrument of salvation?  

The idea that there is salvation in any church, obviously suggests that there really is no reason for the church's existence which maintains that all other churches are equally effectual. It's an altogether ridiculous idea for any one to say that there is salvation in all the others because what they are saying is, "there's no need for mine".    




Offline Ladislaus

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Is this an error?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 09:26:55 AM »
Quote from: Matto
"Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."

Is this an error? It seems to me most traditional Catholics believe this and do not condemn this as an error. They believe men in any religion can have an implicit faith and save their souls without believing in the Catholic religion, though they are saved despite of their religion and not because of their religion.


Obviously it's an error ... condemned of course by Pius IX in the Syllabus.

Tragically, Archbishop Lefebvre articulated exactly this error in his "Open Letter to Confused Catholics".  Unfortunately, that part only confused Catholics even more.

Is this an error?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 11:51:34 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
Obviously it's an error ... condemned of course by Pius IX in the Syllabus.

Tragically, Archbishop Lefebvre articulated exactly this error in his "Open Letter to Confused Catholics".  Unfortunately, that part only confused Catholics even more.

Yes, I just reread the Syllabus again yesterday. This error struck me because in my experience many traditional Catholics including many priests believe it. Even Lefebvre seemed to teach it and Fellay seemed to teach it and as the Dimonds point out all the time, most of the traditional Catholic priests they have talked to seem to teach this also. So I asked if traditional Catholics thought it was an error or if they believed in it.

Offline Ladislaus

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Is this an error?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2016, 08:50:24 AM »
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: Ladislaus
Obviously it's an error ... condemned of course by Pius IX in the Syllabus.

Tragically, Archbishop Lefebvre articulated exactly this error in his "Open Letter to Confused Catholics".  Unfortunately, that part only confused Catholics even more.

Yes, I just reread the Syllabus again yesterday. This error struck me because in my experience many traditional Catholics including many priests believe it. Even Lefebvre seemed to teach it and Fellay seemed to teach it and as the Dimonds point out all the time, most of the traditional Catholic priests they have talked to seem to teach this also. So I asked if traditional Catholics thought it was an error or if they believed in it.


Yes, there's cognitive dissonance of some kind here.  Many Traditional Catholics are familiar with the Syllabus.  In fact, the FIRST course we were required to take at the SSPX Seminary in Winona was a class called "Acts of the Magisterium", taught by Bishop Williamson in which we read and studied all the anti-Modernist Magisterial acts, including the Syllabus.

What I gather is that most Traditional Catholics read this and nod their heads, having in their minds the vision of those abominable ecuмenical gatherings such as at Assisi and think that it condemns things like that.

But if you read it, what is says is that there CANNOT BE SALVATION except in the Catholic religion.  Gasp ... it's "Feeneyism" (even though it makes no explicit reference to Baptism per se).

+Lefebvre EXPLICITLY articulated this EXACT error in his Open Letter and elsewhere.

Quote from: Lefebvre, Address given at Rennes, France
If men are saved in Protestantism, Buddhism or Islam, they are saved by the Catholic Church, by the grace of Our Lord, by the prayers of those in the Church, by the blood of Our Lord as individuals, perhaps through the practice of their religion, perhaps of what they understand in their religion, but not by their religion…


But Pius IX condemned that anyone can be saved IN their religion.  +Lefebvre changes Catholic teaching by saying that EENS really means there's no salvation except BY the Catholic Church, rather than no salvation except IN the Catholic Church.  He reduces the Church to merely an instrumental cause of salvation.

Quote from: Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics
The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion.  They are saved in their religion but not by it.


Again with the "by" vs. "in" distinction.

So now "men of good will" are saved, i.e. that natural good will is salvific.  That's at least semi-Pelagianism.

Now most Trads will spit nails at me for suggesting that their infallible saintly hero may have misfired on something.  But it's just the hard truth.

And if you believe that all these men of good will outside the Church can be saved, there's ZERO doctrinal basis to oppose Vatican II.  That's why the Trad movement is in a state of stagnation and erosion, sliding inexorably back towards the Conciliar Church.

So there's no salvation outside the Church of "good will".