The tempers are certainly running high now, which is usually when I bow out.  I'll kindly request that any of my interlocutors (or Sean Johnson) PM me when it gets back on track.  I've singularly endeavored, for five pages now, to only discuss one argument (not a "conflation" of them, as Lad contends-- he has a bad habit of setting up strawmen so that he can feed his bizarrely masochistic obsession with unorthodoxy).  I don't like sounding like a broken record, so that's it for me.  I truly fear adopting the sort of impatience and eagerness to discover error so rampant among some of the posters in this thread.  I think that's soul-destroying.  Where your treasure is, there is your heart.  

I certainly won't ask (even less expect) an apology, but I gave no heretical formulations (that's twice, without batting an eye, that Lad has thrown this type of charge my way, never substantiated).  Ladislaus is so committed to unearthing unorthodoxy that he's starting to invent it.  Rather than assuming that one understands, go to my posting history and look for the formulation in question.  ctrl+f will be your friend.   https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/?area=showposts;u=2023

I'll leave you guys with this consideration from Pope Pius XI's most trusted moral theologian, Fr. Vermeersch:

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See you guys later

Mithrandylan,

I of late have been just a reader here and haven't been posting. I happened upon this interesting topic just now add some belated comments. Unless I missed something in scanning the rest of this thread, it appears that this was your last post in it. I am sorry for that. I applaud you and commend you for your attempt to have a reasonable, courteous, and charitable discussion of this important topic.

I think your observation about the increase of justification was a keen one. The observation of some of the "Feeneyites" here about the necessity of the sacraments, and of course in this context the sacrament of initiation, the sacrament of faith, for salvation is another that is key to this discussion.

I believe in the necessity of an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism as the minimum necessary for true justification and salvation, and I believe that that maintains the necessity of the sacraments for salvation and also allows for your what I believe to be true reading of Trent as to saving or justifying supernatural faith to be accessible to the catechumen before the sacrament is received per Chapter VI of the Session of Trent on justification. I also believe it gives a nod to Cantrella's point about the Catechumen begging from the Church that faith that comes from the sacrament (Session VII below), a faith that comes from or through the grace of the sacrament even if it comes only by an explicit desire for the sacrament and the grace or faith it bestows.

CHAPTER VI.

The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

There is chain here that culminates, "lastly," in the purpose to receive baptism. The full "chain" is necessary for the disposition unto justice, and this purpose to receive justice is the last, necessary link in the chain.

In Chapter VII of the same session, it is said:

For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circuмcision, availeth anything, nor uncircuмcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

To remain in a state of justification that avails to salvation, which was initiated in the "disposed" Catechumen who previously "beg[ged] for the faith which bestows life everlasting" (again pointing to an explicit desire for the sacrament), the sacrament must be received, the sacrament of "faith" which bestows life everlasting, either by its worthy receipt or the explicit desire for the same in the case of those for those of whom it is said in the Roman Catechism:

On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

This was a very good discussion and I'm sorry you felt impelled to leave it and that it didn't bear more fruit.


Decemrationis