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Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"  (Read 30603 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #235 on: August 24, 2018, 01:01:48 PM »
Quote
I cannot play (a game of) baseball without a bat or a ball.
Yes, I understand your explanation and it is VERY telling that they used the double "vel" in reference to confession but not with baptism.
It still makes it more clear (in my opinion) by saying "I cannot play a baseball game without a bat AND ball."  Using "or", at least in english, seems like you give an option.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #236 on: August 24, 2018, 01:17:55 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2018, 01:01:48 PM
Yes, I understand your explanation and it is VERY telling that they used the double "vel" in reference to confession but not with baptism.
It still makes it more clear (in my opinion) by saying "I cannot play a baseball game without a bat AND ball."  Using "or", at least in english, seems like you give an option.

But by using and, the BoDers will say that we're mistranslating the word ... which technically we are, based on our reading of it.

You're right, though, the "or" in the baseball example is inherently AMBIGUOUS.  It could go either way.  But it's immediately disambiguated by the phrases which follows.

Trent says "justification cannot happen without the laver or the desire, as it is written, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit."  Trent is using Our Lord's words as a citation proof-text for the "laver or the desire", since Our Lord's water corresponds with the laver and the Holy Ghost with the desire (since earlier Trent taught that the Holy Ghost inspires this desire in the soul).  So to take this passage the BoDer way would be to say that Trent taught.  "you can be justified with either water or the desire because Jesus taught that we must be born again of water AND the desire".
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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #237 on: August 24, 2018, 01:45:22 PM »
So, the moral of the story, don't be a protestant and take phrases out of context.  The phrase must be understood as part of the WHOLE sentence/paragraph!!  What a novel idea (sarcasm alert)?
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Offline Cantarella

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #238 on: August 24, 2018, 02:32:13 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2018, 01:17:55 PM
But by using and, the BoDers will say that we're mistranslating the word ... which technically we are, based on our reading of it.

You're right, though, the "or" in the baseball example is inherently AMBIGUOUS.  It could go either way.  But it's immediately disambiguated by the phrases which follows.

Trent says "justification cannot happen without the laver or the desire, as it is written, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit."  Trent is using Our Lord's words as a citation proof-text for the "laver or the desire", since Our Lord's water corresponds with the laver and the Holy Ghost with the desire (since earlier Trent taught that the Holy Ghost inspires this desire in the soul).  So to take this passage the BoDer way would be to say that Trent taught.  "you can be justified with either water or the desire because Jesus taught that we must be born again of water AND the desire".

And this word "voto" is found in the Justification section; not even in the Sacraments section nor the Baptism canons. If Trent would actually have taught "Baptism of Desire" as many are prone to carelessly affirm; then it would have made more sense for the statement to be included in the specific section dealing with Baptism.

Salvation by "justification" alone (for non-Catholics!), is basically what these people really believe in. They just throw the terms out there without knowing what they really mean nor the proper relations between them.
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Offline Struthio

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #239 on: August 27, 2018, 01:23:29 PM »
A creed is a litany of articles of faith, a litany of dogmas. Some quote the Athanasian Creed as a proof that noone can be saved without confessing the articles of the same creed, since that creed not only lists some articles of faith but also declares the necessity to confess said articles to be saved.

There is another creed which beside its articles of faith declares that noone can be saved without confessing the same articles. It is the profession of faith of the Vatican Council:

Quote from: Vatican Council, Session 2, Jan 6, 1870

Profession of faith

1. [...] profession of faith which the holy Roman Church uses, namely:
[...]
4. I profess also that there are seven sacraments of the new law, truly and properly so called, instituted by our lord Jesus Christ and necessary for salvation, though each person need not receive them all. [...]
[...]
14. [...]
This true catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess [...]
papalencyclicals.net, Vatican Council

The text unequivocally states:

1.) (since the new law) noone can be saved without having received a sacrament
2.) anyone not confessing 1.) can't be saved

There is no use in quoting Fathers, Saints, theologians, catechisms or whatever other fallible sources to contradict and attack the creed of an ecuŠ¼enical council.
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