Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?" (Read 30615 times)

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #230 on:** August 24, 2018, 10:17:44 AM »

Quote

There is another argument against the false idea that the latin text signifies that the vote alone is sufficient. If the vote alone was sufficient, consequently the bath alone was sufficient, too. But it is clear that no adult receives a valid sacrament of baptism without desiring and asking for it.

I had made that exact point using satire (in red) in my posting below:

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/dogmatic-decrees-we-will-interpret-them-to-our-desires/

Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires

Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547)
Decree on Justification,
Chapter IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire implicit desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)

Struthio · « **Reply #231 on:** August 24, 2018, 10:24:15 AM »

@Last Tradhican

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #232 on:** August 24, 2018, 10:52:48 AM »

Quote

"translatio sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto, fieri non potest"

So you're saying that the phrase "aut ejus voto" means "AND the desire" not "or the desire"? This is due to the the use of the word "sine" earlier in the sentence? Interesting.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #233 on:** August 24, 2018, 12:31:38 PM »

Trent used the phrase very carefully, "justification cannot happen without".

This means necessary cause. Desire is necessary for justification. No desire, no justification. This does not mean that desire alone SUFFICES for justification. This is the age-old scholastic distinction between sufficient cause and necessary cause. AT NO POINT DOES TRENT TEACH THAT DESIRE ALONE SUFFICES FOR JUSTIFICATION.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #234 on:** August 24, 2018, 12:37:36 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2018, 10:52:48 AM

So you're saying that the phrase "aut ejus voto" means "AND the desire" not "or the desire"? This is due to the the use of the word "sine" earlier in the sentence? Interesting.

Correct. Even in English.

I cannot play (a game of) baseball without a bat or a ball.

This means that I cannot play baseball unless I have BOTH a bat and a ball and that if EITHER ONE IS MISSING, I cannot play baseball. In the positive, if I say, I CAN play baseball with a bat or a ball, then this means that I can play the game if I have one OR the other (not necessarily both). See the difference. If Trent had wanted to say that EITHER the laver OR the desire sufficed, Trent would have used an EITHER...OR construct (like AUT...AUT or VEL...VEL). In the case of Confession, Trent uses "VEL...VEL" to mean that either the desire or actual Confession sufficed for restoration to justification. Trent did NOT do that here with Baptism.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?" (Read 30615 times)

Last Tradhican

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"

Struthio

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"

Pax Vobis

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"

Ladislaus

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"

Ladislaus

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"