Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"  (Read 26778 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3163
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #180 on: August 22, 2018, 01:18:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Indeed, Cantarella.  JohnSeanson just described the Vatican II definition of Church in a nutshell.  Since anyone who is saved must by definition be within the Church, all these non-Catholics are actually within the Church.  So we now have a Church that consists not only of Catholics proper, but also of all manner of heretics, schismatics, and infidels ... who while formally belonging to the Church have varying degrees of material separation from the fullness of truth that is held by Catholics in whom the Church subsists.  V2 in a nutshell.

    Au contraire:

    V2 speaks of false churches “subsisting” in the true Church.

    That is heretical.

    What implicit baptism of desire pertains to is INDIVIDUALS joined to the true Church (without being members of it) by sanctifying grace, and therefore saved.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14845
    • Reputation: +6141/-916
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #181 on: August 22, 2018, 01:34:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What implicit baptism of desire pertains to is INDIVIDUALS joined to the true Church (without being members of it) by sanctifying grace, and therefore saved.
    I find it amazing that any Catholic could possibly believe that there even are ANY individuals who refused to become members of the true Church whilst they lived, but believe it a (dogmatic) teaching of the Church that these same individuals, via some good intention, joined it anyway moments from their dying breath - and on that account were saved.

    What ever happened to "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

    The idea that man can save himself is a heresy - no?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12573
    • Reputation: +7995/-2484
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #182 on: August 22, 2018, 02:00:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    What implicit baptism of desire pertains to is INDIVIDUALS joined to the true Church (without being members of it) by sanctifying grace, and therefore saved.
    This could only apply to formal catechumens, as Trent describes clearly.  Basically, the only people who are "joined" to the church without being members are those whose membership is "pending" because they ACTED to reject their errors, learn about the Faith and desire it.

    No one is joined to the Church who is still part of a non-catholic religion.  Certainly not one who is altogether ignorant of Her.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11527
    • Reputation: +6477/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #183 on: August 22, 2018, 02:07:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You keep repeating "explicit act of supernatural faith" but you've never explained what actually qualifies.
    Was this question ever answered in this thread?  Perhaps it was and I missed it?

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #184 on: August 22, 2018, 02:12:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I find it amazing that any Catholic could possibly believe that there even are ANY individuals who refused to become members of the true Church whilst they lived, but believe it a (dogmatic) teaching of the Church that these same individuals, via some good intention, joined it anyway moments from their dying breath - and on that account were saved.

    What ever happened to "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

    The idea that man can save himself is a heresy - no?

    They didn’t “refuse to become” Catholics.

    They never had the CHANCE to become Catholics.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #185 on: August 22, 2018, 02:13:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Was this question ever answered in this thread?  Perhaps it was and I missed it?

    See p.1, post 2 of this thread.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2522
    • Reputation: +1041/-1106
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #186 on: August 22, 2018, 02:17:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • See p.1, post 2 of this thread.
    No, all you did was state that a supernatural act in at least one aspect of the faith was required. You never explained what exactly that meant. You said this applies to the invincibly ignorant, so that begs the question, how on earth can one who has never heard of the Catholic Church perform a supernatural aspect in one aspect of the faith? The faith = the Catholic faith right? How can you perform a supernatural act in an aspect of the Catholic faith without being a Catholic?

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #187 on: August 22, 2018, 02:48:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • No, all you did was state that a supernatural act in at least one aspect of the faith was required. You never explained what exactly that meant. You said this applies to the invincibly ignorant, so that begs the question, how on earth can one who has never heard of the Catholic Church perform a supernatural aspect in one aspect of the faith? The faith = the Catholic faith right? How can you perform a supernatural act in an aspect of the Catholic faith without being a Catholic?

    The answers to the questions you are asking here are contained in the post I directed you to.

    Perhaps you don’t like the answer, or perhaps you are determined to not so much as even reading them (CRIMESTOP?), or comprehending them, but if the strategy with my arguments will be the same as that used with Mithrandylan’s (ie., talking right past the argument and repeating the demand to furnish that which has already been furnished), it doesn’t leave much hope for productive conversation.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14845
    • Reputation: +6141/-916
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #188 on: August 22, 2018, 02:51:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • They didn’t “refuse to become” Catholics.

    They never had the CHANCE to become Catholics.
    Wrong. Just as those are members of the Church are so of their own free will, those who are not members are not so of their own free will. 

    "If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children." - Fr. Wathen

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #189 on: August 22, 2018, 02:57:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/dogmatic-decrees-we-will-interpret-them-to-our-desires/

    Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires

    St. Augustine:   “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)
     
     
    Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
     “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches
    that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” [/color](pagans and Jews can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)[/size]


    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which [/size]nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a God that rewards)
     
     Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
     “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation
    nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a God that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)
     
     Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
     “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a God that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it,  their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
     “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all
    to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a God that rewards)
     
     Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
     “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which
    no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” ( Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)
     
     Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true
    Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which
    no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which
    none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”
     
     Council of Trent, Session VI  (Jan. 13, 1547)
     Decree on Justification,
     Chapter IV.
     
     A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
     
     By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And
    this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire implicit desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)
     
     Chapter VII.
     
     What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
     
     This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
     
     Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;
    the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439,
    ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
     Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
     On Baptism
     
     Canon 2.
    If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Canon 5. If any one saith, that
    baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943:
    “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is  belief in a god that rewards)
     
     Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
     way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
     Christians, and
    serves to differentiate them from those who
    have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
    consequently are not members of Christ
    orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
     have not received this consecration.” ( person who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)
     
     
     (Oh, I forgot, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above, invincible ignorance. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invinble ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12573
    • Reputation: +7995/-2484
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #190 on: August 22, 2018, 02:57:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    They didn’t “refuse to become” Catholics...They never had the CHANCE to become Catholics.
    CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

    Unless the Holy Ghost provides man with the disposition/inspiration to be justified, then he will not be.  Unless the Holy Ghost disposes man to accept the Church, he will not accept it.

    Those whom God does not dispose/inspire to be baptized or to have knowledge of the Faith, are those whom God knew, from all eternity, would not accept His graces.  Usually the adage of "grace builds on nature" applies.  This is called the mystery of salvation.


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11527
    • Reputation: +6477/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #191 on: August 22, 2018, 03:23:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The answers to the questions you are asking here are contained in the post I directed you to.


    The only thing that that post states is that, in order for implicit BOD to apply, a person must make an "explicit act of faith in at least one aspect of the true religion".  Can you provide examples of what those aspects would be?  This is what at least a handful of us are asking here.  If we have missed it, then just copy and paste it in a new post.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #192 on: August 22, 2018, 03:53:13 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Wrong. Just as those are members of the Church are so of their own free will, those who are not members are not so of their own free will.  

    "If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children." - Fr. Wathen

    Nonsense:

    That there is such a thing as invincible ignorance refutes your claim that all those who are outside the visible Church are so by their own will.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #193 on: August 22, 2018, 03:58:28 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/dogmatic-decrees-we-will-interpret-them-to-our-desires/

    Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires

    St. Augustine:   “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)
     
     
    Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
     “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches
    that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” [/color](pagans and Jews can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)[/size]


    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which [/size]nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a God that rewards)
     
     Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
     “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation
    nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a God that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)
     
     Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
     “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a God that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it,  their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
     “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all
    to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a God that rewards)
     
     Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
     “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which
    no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” ( Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)
     
     Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true
    Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which
    no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which
    none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”
     
     Council of Trent, Session VI  (Jan. 13, 1547)
     Decree on Justification,
     Chapter IV.
     
     A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
     
     By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And
    this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire implicit desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)
     
     Chapter VII.
     
     What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
     
     This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
     
     Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;
    the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439,
    ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
     Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
     On Baptism
     
     Canon 2.
    If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Canon 5. If any one saith, that
    baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943:
    “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is  belief in a god that rewards)
     
     Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
     way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
     Christians, and
    serves to differentiate them from those who
    have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
    consequently are not members of Christ
    orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
     have not received this consecration.” ( person who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)
     
     
     (Oh, I forgot, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above, invincible ignorance. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invinble ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)


    That implicit baptism of desire is taught in most post-Tridentine catechisms, taught or accepted by all pope’s, saints, and that Council itself (which did not distinguish between explicit and partial mplicit), and contradicted by none, shows it is the Feeneyites, and not I, who are misinterpreting Trent.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12573
    • Reputation: +7995/-2484
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #194 on: August 22, 2018, 04:02:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'll wait for Sean to clear up what he means, but i've heard it from others that:

    Implicit BoD, would happen where someone who already assents to the two chief mysteries (the Trinity and the Incarnation), but who either has not yet heard of baptism, or has heard of it and doesn't know what it is. 

    This is absolutely false.  Implicit desire of baptism means the desire is not openly expressed, but is implied by actions.  One who doesn't know what baptism is or who has never heard of it, cannot desire it AT ALL.  One who only knows a few mysteries of the faith does NOT have an implicit desire for the Faith or Baptism because there are plenty of atheists/freemasons/satanists who know the Faith VERY well, yet still reject it.  Or, there are many protestants who accept the Incarnation/Trinity but 100% REJECT the necessity of baptism, since they only accept "faith alone" for salvation.

    No, knowledge and assent of the main mysteries of the Faith are not sufficient for salvation and BOD, as Trent clearly says.

    Those who misuderstand and corrupt 'implicit desire', through sentimental theology and a denial of Trent, create the atmosphere for universal salvation, which is possible in any religion, because of their error that "faith in God" or "faith in some mysteries" suffices for desire, and eventually, salvation.