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Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"  (Read 26770 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2018, 09:56:24 PM »
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  • ...or desire for it.

    Not without it and not without desire for it. You should not fall for bad translations.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #151 on: August 21, 2018, 09:56:54 PM »
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  • In my LONG experience with defenders of baptism of desire, I have come to the conclusion that I can safely say that 99% of those that defend BOD are really defending their belief that people in any and all religions can be saved without any real desire to be baptized or to be a Catholic, and without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

    This is what be stressed time and time again. It's not BoD, per se.

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm

    Quote
    Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #152 on: August 21, 2018, 10:00:22 PM »
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  • That's a two edge sword. The same demand can be made of your hypothetical. Your example of a Eastern schismatic child is specious. "Suddenly he dies". If a person follows the commandments, God will preserve him, and send him a preacher.

    https://dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdeVer14.htm#11

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecuмenism/salvation.htm

    Nonsense:

    1) The entire praxis of the Church, particularly in Her missionary apostolates testifies to the contrary (e.g., in the oft-cited example of Archbishop Lefebvre to the catechumen who feared going to hell if he dies before the Archbishop returned).  Lefebvre did not make up his response out of thin air.  It is what the Church has been practicing in the field for 2000 years.

    2) You would also negate the dogmatic teaching of Trent (in voto) and the very reality of baptism of desire, which practically every saint and council to discuss the matter has reaffirmed (or was Trent in error, and the unanimity of theologians in error, and all the popes who taught baptism of desire in their magisterial capacity in error, etc?).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #153 on: August 21, 2018, 10:01:23 PM »
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  • Not without it and not without desire for it. You should not fall for bad translations.

    You are attacking the council you think you are defending.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #154 on: August 21, 2018, 10:03:08 PM »
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  • This is what be stressed time and time again. It's not BoD, per se.

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm

    Doctrinal tunnel vision.

    If you plug your ears hard enough, it will be easier for you to "stress time and time again."

    Kind of like Deb from Napoleon Dynamite: 

    Deb: "Would you like to look like this?"

    Napoleon: "This is a picture of a girl."

    Deb (Undeterred, and determined to talk through her sales script): "'cause for a limited time, glamor shots by Deb are only $9.99."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #155 on: August 21, 2018, 10:04:21 PM »
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  • Nonsense:

    1) The entire praxis of the Church, particularly in Her missionary apostolates testifies to the contrary (e.g., in the oft-cited example of Archbishop Lefebvre to the catechumen who feared going to hell if he dies before the Archbishop returned).  Lefebvre did not make up his response out of thin air.  It is what the Church has been practicing in the field for 2000 years.

    2) You would also negate the dogmatic teaching of Trent (in voto) and the very reality of baptism of desire, which practically every saint and council to discuss the matter has reaffirmed (or was Trent in error, and the unanimity of theologians in error, and all the popes who taught baptism of desire in their magisterial capacity in error, etc?).

    You're arguing a Eastern schismatic child would receive BoD? He's already baptized. The argument I'm making right now is not against BoD, in and of itself. The argument is against the position that salvation can be had without the Catholic faith.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #156 on: August 21, 2018, 10:08:43 PM »
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  • You're arguing a Eastern schismatic child would receive BoD? He's already baptized. The argument I'm making right now is not against BoD, in and of itself. The argument is against the position that salvation can be had without the Catholic faith.

    He's not a member of the Church, but being justified, he would be joined to it by grace through implicit baptism of desire.

    That he has had water baptism is irrelevant (or, are you saying the Orthodox are members of the Church in virtue of their water baptism?).

    And, where did you ever get the idea that implicit baptism of desire is salvation without the Catholic Church??
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #157 on: August 21, 2018, 10:12:12 PM »
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  • He's not a member of the Church, but he would be justified by implicit baptism of desire (i.e., to become a member of the Church).

    Baptized as an infant he would be a member of the Catholic Church. Upon reaching the age of reason, if he professes his parents' heresies he loses his status as a member. What is this applying of the grace of BoD to one already baptized?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #158 on: August 21, 2018, 10:17:30 PM »
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  • Baptized as an infant he would be a member of the Catholic Church. Upon reaching the age of reason, if he professes his parents' heresies he loses his status as a member. What is this applying of the grace of BoD to one already baptized?

    And of course, he WOULD be professing his parents' heresies, and therefore lose his status as a member of the Church.

    Nevertheless, he would still be joined to it by the grace of which you speak, in the example I laid out.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #159 on: August 21, 2018, 10:17:56 PM »
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  • You are attacking the council you think you are defending.

    LOL.

    You use the single word "desire" used by the Council of Trent to indicate that baptism has not only to happen but also to be desired, to construct a doctrine of two additional baptisms which are not even mentioned by the Council of Trent and additionally are excluded and anathematized by the Council of Trent in multiple ways.

    The Council of Trent forbids strictly to teach anything other than the Council of Trent teaches on justification. And: The Council of Trent does not even mention "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood".

    Nobody forces you to study and understand, what the true Faith, taught by the authorized Magisterium of the Church is, and nobody forces you to adhere to it. If you prefer to stick to the speculation of St. Thomas Aquinas about three baptisms, well, that's your choice. But anyone with basic reading skills laughs at you, when you suggest that the Council of Trent teaches three baptisms.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #160 on: August 21, 2018, 10:20:15 PM »
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  • LOL.

    You use the single word "desire" used by the Council of Trent to indicate that baptism has not only to happen but also to be desired, to construct a doctrine of two additional baptisms which are not even mentioned by the Council of Trent and additionaly are excluded and anathematized by the Council of Trent in multiple ways.

    The Council of Trent forbids strictly to teach anything other than the Council of Trent teaches on justification. And: The Council of Trent does not even mention "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood".

    Nobody forces you to study and understand, what the true Faith, taught by the authorized Magisterium of the Church is, and nobody forces you to adhere to it. If you prefer to stick to the speculation of St. Thomas Aquinas about three baptisms, well, that's your choice. But anyone with basic reading skills laughs at you, when you suggest that the Council of Trent teaches three baptisms.

    Who has a better grasp on what Trent taught:

    You, or hundreds of catechisms, popes, saints, doctors of the Church, and the entire missionary history (both before and after Trent) of the Church (all of which sides with me)?

    It is theoretically possible that they are all wrong, and you are right, but somehow I doubt it.

    Actually, come to think about it, it is not even theoretically possible that you are right and they are wrong.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #161 on: August 21, 2018, 10:22:35 PM »
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  • In other words, God considers those who but know Him imperfectly, through no fault of their own, but who desire to do all they understand to be their obligations, and would certainly have offered to pay for gas had they had the chance to do so, "hijackers?"

    By this line of thinking, you degrade God to the level of a Pharisee, who rewards and punishes on technicalities (hope you haven't made any mistakes in confession, and that the priest who you think baptized did so with proper form, matter, intent, and Orders).

    Implicitly, you are forwarding some kind of theory of predestination ("If God wanted them in Heaven, he would have sent a priest to baptize them").
    Not quite. Perhaps by our own selfishness and lack of charity, those souls could have been saved.

    A priest gave a sermon many years ago.

    I think it was a parable from one of the lives of the saints.

    Quote
    There was a woman who had died, and thinking that she had lived a good life, she was rather surprised to find herself in hell. She pleaded with her guardian angel to look into this matter, as there must have been a serious mistake, and get her out of hell. He asked her if she had done anything good in life. She thought and thought. Finally, she said that she had once given a huge fresh onion from her garden to a beggar so that he could make some onion soup.

    Guardian Angel - Is this that onion?

    Woman - Why, yes. That is the one.

    Guardian Angel - Here, hold onto the onion and I will pull you out of Hell.

    The woman grabs onto the onion, but others see that she is trying to escape. These would be hijackers quickly grab her legs weighing her down, pulling her down, down, down, towards the fiery pit. Drenched with sweat, she pleads with her Guardian Angel to take her up faster.  She appears to be gaining speed, only to be slowed down as others grab onto the few hijackers forming a huge pyramid underneath her.  She pleads with them to take their hands off her to no avail.

    Then in utter desperation, she exclaims loudly:

    Let go, it's MY onion.

    A loud splash is heard as the woman falls back into the fiery pit with all those attached to her.

    In her heart, she now knows why. Her own selfishness has condemned her to a life of hell.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #162 on: August 21, 2018, 10:26:12 PM »
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  • Not quite. Perhaps by our own selfishness and lack of charity, those souls could have been saved.

    A priest gave a sermon many years ago.

    I think it was a parable from one of the lives of the saints.

    Somehow, I doubt the moral of that story was intended to be a rejection of baptism of desire, or an argument in favor of (uncatholic) predestination
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #163 on: August 21, 2018, 10:47:46 PM »
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  • Müller, Michael. The Catholic Dogma- Extra Ecclesiam Nullus Omnino Salvatur (Kindle Locations 2501-2559). The Perfect Library. Kindle Edition.


    Quote
    When St. Thomas says, "Ipsum, (i.e. Deum) credere, to believe God," etc., he speaks of Catholics who have the true faith, as is evident from all that precedes, especially from q. i., art. 10., in which he says that it belongs especially to the Pope, whom Christ made the visible head of his Church, to see to the arrangement and publication of the symbol of faith. It is, therefore, to say the least, unwise for the Rev. A. Young to apply to himself and other material heretics what St. Thomas says only of the faith of Catholics; for he says expressly that those who have not the true faith cannot make an act of faith as it ought to be made, that is, in the manner determined by the true faith. And what St. Thomas means by "Ipsum credere, to believe God," he tells us in q. v., art. 3, in which he says: "The formal object of faith is the First Truth (that is, God himself) such as he is known from Holy Scripture and from the doctrine of the Church, which (doctrine) proceeds from the First Truth. Hence any one who does not adhere to the infallible and divine rule of faith-to the doctrine of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth as made known in the Holy Scripture, cannot have the habit of faith; but if he holds certain truths of faith, he holds them not by faith, but by some other reasons. But it is clear that he who adheres to the doctrine of the Church as to the infallible rule of belief, assents to all that the Church teaches; he, however, who chooses to believe some of those truths which the Church teaches, and to reject others, instead of adhering to the doctrine of the Church as the infallible rule of faith, adheres only to his own private will or judgment. "

    Those articles of faith in which a heretic does not err, he does not believe in the same manner as a Catholic believes them; for a Catholic believes them by unhesitatingly adhering to the First Truth (as made known in Holy Scripture and in the doctrine of the Church), to do which he needs the help of the habit of faith; but a heretic does not hold certain articles of faith by this infallible rule, but only by his own choice and private judgment. He whose faith is not based upon the infallible and divine rule of faith, has no true faith at all; for he who does not believe God in the way determined by the true faith, does not believe God.

    "We cannot believe absolutely a divine truth proposed for our belief unless we know that such a truth is proposed for our belief by an infallible and divine authority; it is only then that both the intellect and the will are infallibly directed to believe, and to adhere to the object of faith-God and his revealed truths-as the principle end of man, on account of which he assents to divine truths. As this infallible and divine authority is found only in the Catholic Church, it is evident that true acts of faith can be made only by him who adheres to this authority. (Sum. 22 q. ii. art. ii., ad 3; 3, 22, q. iv., art. 5.) As the Rev. A. Young, when a Protestant, did not, and could not, have this infallible and divine rule of faith, he did not, and could not, according to the doctrine of St. Thomas make acts of divine faith. If it is true, then, what he asserts, namely, "that his faith underwent no change when he became a Catholic," it must be true also that he is a peculiar kind of a Catholic.

    That the Rev. A. Young, as long as he was a Protestant, could not make acts of divine faith in the manner determined by faith, is also evident from the doctrine of St. Alphonsus.

    God begins the work of man's salvation, says St. Alphonsus, by working upon the soul inwardly and outwardly. God works upon the soul inwardly by inspiring it first with the thought of salvation. From the thought of salvation arises the desire of salvation. The desire of salvation prepares the soul to comply with the conditions of salvation. Now, the first condition of salvation is true, divine faith. The beginning of true faith, then, is the desire thereof, arising from the thought of salvation. The pious desire of faith, however, is not as yet formal faith; it is but the good thought of wishing to believe, which, as St. Augustine says, precedes belief.

    The desire of salvation, inspired by Almighty God, must also be accomplished by him. So he also works upon the soul outwardly. The most usual means which he employs to work upon the soul outwardly and lead it to the possession of the true faith is to give it an opportunity to learn the truths of salvation from the Catholic Church. "Faith is from hearing," says St. Paul. He then enlightens the intellect of man to see the truths of salvation; he inclines the will to believe those truths as coming to him from God, through the divine authority of his Church, and to trust in God's faithfulness to his promises. He believes especially that God pardons the repentant sinner and receives him into his friendship on account of the merits of Jesus Christ. But in hearing the sacred Law promulgated he perceives that he is a sinner, and therefore fears the justice of God, which is provoked by his iniquities. Having been cast down by this salutary shock, a feeling of confidence in the infinite mercy of God presents itself and raises him up. He hopes that, in consideration of Christ's merits, God will pardon him. Animated by this hope, he begins to love. This love leads him to detest his sins, to repent of them, to repair them, as far as possible; it makes him resolve to keep the commandments, and to become reconciled with God by the means given by Him, that is, Baptism for unbaptized persons, and the sacrament of Penance for those Christians who have lost the grace of God.

    Faith, therefore, to be truly divine and saving, must be based upon the divine Authority of God as invested in the Roman Catholic Church.

    "Without a visible, infallible Head of the Church," says St. Alphonsus, "it would be impossible to have an infallible rule of faith, whereby to know with certainty what to believe and what to do. Hence he who is separated from the Church and is not obedient to her has no infallible rule of faith; he has no longer any criterion whereby he can know what he has to believe and to do. Without this divine authority of the Church, neither the principles of divine revelation nor even those of human reason have any support, because the utterances of the one as well as those of the other will then be interpreted by every one as he pleases; and then every one can deny all the truths of faith-The Most Holy Trinity, the Incarnation of Christ, heaven and hell, and whatever else he chooses to deny. I, therefore, repeat: If the divine authority of the Church and the obedience due to her are renounced, every error will be endorsed and must be tolerated in others. This undeniable argument made a Calvinist preacher renounce his errors." (Appendix to his work, Council of Trent.)

    Hence St. Thomas, speaking of faith, says: "The virtue of faith consists principally in submitting our intellect and will, with the help of God's grace, to the divine authority of the true Church charged by Jesus Christ to teach us what we must believe. He who does not follow this rule of faith, has no true faith at all." The reason of this is given above by St. Alphonsus; for how could we, without the Church, know that God has revealed anything at all? How could we know what he has revealed? How could we know the meaning of his revelations? How could we know the written Word of God? How could we know the meaning of Holy Scripture? For Holy Scripture does not consist in the words, but in the sense of the words. How could we know the extent of the divine revelations? For the extent of the divine revelations is greater than that of Holy Scripture. So, without the divine authority of the Roman Catholic Church, we can hold no revealed truth on divine authority; if we hold any Catholic truths, we believe them only on human authority; and such belief is no divine faith. Acts of divine faith, therefore, consist in believing firmly what God tells us through the divine authority of his Church. All heretics, formal as well as material, are separated from this divine authority, and therefore even the acts of faith made by material heretics are by no means acts of divine faith, in spite of their inculpable ignorance of the divine authority of the Church.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #164 on: August 21, 2018, 10:51:02 PM »
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  • Who has a better grasp on what Trent taught:

    You, or hundreds of catechisms, popes, saints, doctors of the Church, and the entire missionary history (both before and after Trent) of the Church (all of which sides with me)?

    It is theoretically possible that they are all wrong, and you are right, but somehow I doubt it.

    Actually, come to think about it, it is not even theoretically possible that you are right and they are wrong.

    Yes, there are quite a few catechisms contradicting the Council of Trent. It starts even with the "Catechism of Trent" which has the peculiar idea of a catechumen accidentally dying (as if there were accidents in the creation of God). Popes? Well, there is a Catechism called "Catechism of St. Pius X". It explains that noone is saved without baptism. Then it asks: really noone? Answering: yes noone. Then again, same procedure. After the third or so try, finally, it admits some strange possibility of belonging to the soul of the Church. That is a joke. I don't believe that St. Pius wrote that or approved it. Doctors? There is St. Alphonsus referencing the decree on Confession to talk about a baptism without true baptism. I don't believe he himself wrote that part of his books. The entire missionary history? How could the "entire missionary history" prove that any specific person did not go to hell?

    Obviously, you reject to study and understand the Decree on Justification of the Council of Trent for yourself, you prefer to rather stick to other pseudo-"authorities" whom you trust without reviewing the questions. Well, do what you think you have to do. I don't blame you.

    But I do advise everybody interested in the true faith of the Church as decreed and defined by the ecuмenical Council of Trent and adopted into the Profession of the Faith by the Vatican Council to read and study the Decree on Justification of the Council of Trent. It is a good exercise, to decompose the nowadays uncommon long sentences, to better understand what is being said. It's worth it. It is truth fallen from heaven. It is the Faith without which noone pleases God.