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Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"  (Read 27075 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #135 on: August 21, 2018, 08:45:00 PM »
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  • A Practical Commentary On Holy Scripture by Frederick Justus Knecht D.D.

    CHAPTER XCII

    THE CONVERSION OF CORNELIUS

    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/knecht/untitled-189.shtml#_Toc385594913

    The graces of Redemption can be received only through the Church. When our Lord Jesus revealed Himself to Saul, He might Himself have imparted to him all necessary instruction, and the grace of regeneration. He did not, however, do so, but sent to him the priest Ananias to teach him and baptize him. Our Blessed Lord acted in the same way regarding the conversion of Cornelius. He neither taught him directly Himself, nor by the mouth of an angel, but commanded him to send for Peter, and hear his words. Nor did the wonderful outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Cornelius and his companions make Baptism superfluous; for each one had to be baptized, and be thus received into the Church by her ministers. It is only by the exercise of the threefold—teaching, pastoral, and priestly—office of the Church, that men can be united and reconciled to our Lord Jesus Christ. He who despises and neglects the means of grace entrusted to the Church cannot receive grace; and he who says that the priesthood is unnecessary, falls into a most fatal error. St. Paul writes thus (1 Cor. 4:1): “Let a man so account of us as the ministers of God, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.”

    Baptism is the first and most necessary of the Sacraments. The Holy Ghost descended visibly on Corneiius and his companions, and imparted to them the gift of tongues, in order to convince the Jєωιѕн Christians that the Gentiles need not first become Jews before they could receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost. This outpouring of the Holy Ghost prepared them for a worthy reception of holy Baptism, but it was only by their Baptism that they received the grace of regeneration, and became members of the Body of Christ, that is, His Church.

    The good works of sinners. Cornelius was convinced of the nothingness of the pagan gods, and believed in One Invisible God, the Creator of heaven and earth. He also observed the moral law which God has written in the hearts of men, and which He revealed in the ten Commandments. He constantly prayed to God for guidance and knowledge of the truth; and he supplemented his prayers by works of mercy and almsgiving. Now, these good works of prayer and almsgiving were indeed supernatural good works, but still could not directly merit for Cornelius everlasting happiness, for only those good works which are performed in a state of sanctifying grace have meritorious value for heaven. Because Cornelius corresponded with divine grace, he received the further gift of faith, and by Baptism received sanctifying grace.

    The following virtues are to be found in Cornelius:

    1. He was religious, for he prayed continually, and honoured God, and according to his lights strove after religious truth.
    2. He was conscientious, for, as far as his conscience taught him, he observed God’s commandments, obeyed the will of God, and kept himself from sin.
    3. He was charitable and compassionate, working for the good of his neighbour. He practised not only the corporal but also the spiritual works of mercy, by inviting his friends to hear the words of Peter, and thus leading them to the true faith.
    4. He was obedient to God’s command to send for Peter, and he thereby obtained salvation.
    5. He was humble. If he had said to himself: “What can an uneducated fisherman like Peter do for me, a cultivated Roman?” he would not have obtained the gift of faith in Jesus Christ.
    6. He believed the word of God, as it was announced to him by Peter, and therefore he received the gift of faith from the Holy Ghost, and the grace of Baptism.

    Indifferentism in matters of faith. The sentence in Peter’s discourse: “In every nation he that feareth God and worketh justice is acceptable to Him”, has been interpreted by people either indifferent about, or weak in faith, to mean: “It is all the same what people believe, or what religious creed they profess, if only they live good lives.” Now is this principle, that religion and faith are matters of indifference, correct? No! it is utterly false and un-Christian, and that for these reasons: 1. Peter did not say: “Faith does not signify”; for he was, on the contrary, most anxious to convert Cornelius to the true faith; but his words meant rather that nationality does not signify—it does not matter what nation a man belongs to, for all nations are called to believe in Jesus Christ, and all persons, to whatever nation they may belong, are acceptable to Him, if, as Cornelius did, they keep the commandments and strive after a knowledge of the truth. Such men, being acceptable to God, are called by Him to believe the true faith, and thereby obtain salvation. 2. Peter, at the end of his discourse, expressly teaches that no one can obtain forgiveness of sins but through faith in Jesus (compare with this his words in chapter LXXXV: “There is no other Name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved”; Acts 4:12). 3. If no account was to be made of holding the true faith, St. Peter need not have preached to Cornelius, and need not have baptized him. 4. If it be a matter of indifference what faith a man holds, then the whole revelation of God would have been unnecessary, and it would have been quite superfluous for our Lord Jesus Christ to have come into the world, to have taught the true faith, and founded His Church. 5. The principle that it does not signify what a man believes is in direct opposition to the teaching of the Gospels, in which we find our Blessed Lord so often demanding faith in Himself and His doctrine (see, for example, chapter XV). There is only one true God, one Saviour, and one true faith, which Jesus Christ taught and bequeathed to the Church that He founded. Any indifference in matters of faith, or any admiration of it in others must come from a want of firm religious convictions, and is a grievous sin against faith.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #136 on: August 21, 2018, 08:55:00 PM »
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  • Pax-

    Let's say there is a 7 yr-old Russian Orthodox boy.

    He has attained the age of reason.

    He has never heard the claims of the Catholic Church regarding EENS, but he does believe that he must avoid and confess sins, receive Holy Communion, attend Mass, etc.

    In short, he desires to do whatever God would require of him (even though he does not know what all of those things are).

    There being no obex gratiae (i.e., obstacle) to block the transfer of sanctifying grace through the valid sacraments he receives, he is most certainly in that state (ie., justified).

    Suddenly he dies.

    Do you deny that such a one is joined to the Catholic Church (while not being a member of it), through said grace, even though he never explicitly desired it?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #137 on: August 21, 2018, 09:00:14 PM »
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  • No, he’s not “joined” to the Church since he’s not a member. You can’t be a “half” member.  Would he go to heaven or Limbo? It’s debatable.  You can believe whatever you want until the Church clarifies it.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #138 on: August 21, 2018, 09:04:58 PM »
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  • No, he’s not “joined” to the Church since he’s not a member. You can’t be a “half” member.  Would he go to heaven or Limbo? It’s debatable.  You can believe whatever you want until the Church clarifies it.  

    Pax-

    That bizarre answer necessarily implies the damnation of the justified.

    Can you cite a single approved pope, council, saint, or theologian to back your made-up theology?

    The answer is "no."

    I'm done with you; you are beyond help.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #139 on: August 21, 2018, 09:07:19 PM »
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  • PS:

    My truck (the Church) is the only one which can make it to Canada (Heaven).  

    Outside my truck (Church), none reach Canada (Heaven).  

    As I depart, someone desired to latch a rope (sanctifying grace) around my trailer hitch, and they are pulled by the truck (Church) to Canada (Heaven) with us, because of the truck (Church) which was latched onto by the rope (grace).  

    They are not passengers (members) of the truck (Church), but are pulled (joined to it) by the rope (grace) to Canada (Heaven) nevertheless.

    Get it?

    Now I am done.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #140 on: August 21, 2018, 09:09:10 PM »
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  • Let’s move on.  A Justified person goes to heaven.  Ok?  It’s such a minor point that it doesn’t matter. 

    What matters is - who qualifies to be justified?  You argue that all manner of non-Catholics do, which is at odds with Trent.  

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #141 on: August 21, 2018, 09:38:35 PM »
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  • As Last Tradhican points out, it is a waste of time to debate the eternal place of a justified but unbaptized person (ie a formal catechumen).  My opinion is, they would go to limbo.  Is it possible they would go to heaven?  Some theologians think so.  It is open for debate.  Whatever you think, it’s not heresy because the Church has not ruled on this precise question.

    The Council of Trent clearly teaches that there is no "justified but unbaptized person". It teaches that the sacrament of baptism is the instrumental cause of Justification. Hence there is no Justification without the sacrament of baptism. Furthermore, it teaches that without Justification the candidate is not "an heir according to hope of life everlasting" and neither are "the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ communicated" to him.

    The teachings of the Council of Trent on Justification are part of the Profession of Faith of the Vatican Council. To state that "the Church has not ruled on this precise question" is nothing but an obvious and plain refusal to take note of the infallible teachings of the Magisterium of the Church.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #142 on: August 21, 2018, 09:39:18 PM »
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  • PS:

    My truck (the Church) is the only one which can make it to Canada (Heaven).  

    Outside my truck (Church), none reach Canada (Heaven).  

    As I depart, someone desired to latch a rope (sanctifying grace) around my trailer hitch, and they are pulled by the truck (Church) to Canada (Heaven) with us, because of the truck (Church) which was latched onto by the rope (grace).  

    They are not passengers (members) of the truck (Church), but are pulled (joined to it) by the rope (grace) to Canada (Heaven) nevertheless.

    Get it?

    Now I am done.
    In the real world, if a person hijacks a ride on a truck or a plane, he is considered to be a criminal. He is using up the gas on the vehicle and not paying anything. He is a free-loader who could be causing the vehicle to lose balance or to run out of fuel for his unplanned extra weight. He could end up dead if the rope breaks or if he ends up freezing outside.

    Unfortunately, in the real world, we are also taught not to judge, but to applaud criminals for being so clever, for using any means to achieve their ends.

    These WHAT-IF scenarios are appeals to emotion -- to feel sorry for such criminals. The stories on Robin Hood come to mind.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #143 on: August 21, 2018, 09:43:19 PM »
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  • The Council of Trent clearly teaches that there is no "justified but unbaptized person". It teaches that the sacrament of baptism is the instrumental cause of Justification. Hence there is no Justification without the sacrament of baptism. Furthermore, it teaches that without Justification the candidate is not "an heir according to hope of life everlasting" and neither are "the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ communicated" to him.

    The teachings of the Council of Trent on Justification are part of the Profession of Faith of the Vatican Council. To state that "the Church has not ruled on this precise question" is nothing but an obvious and plain refusal to take note of the infallible teachings of the Magisterium of the Church.

    There are three baptisms: Water, blood, and desire.

    It is this latter which will satisfy your criteria.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #144 on: August 21, 2018, 09:45:18 PM »
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  • In the real world, if a person hijacks a ride on a truck or a plane, he is considered to be a criminal. He is using up the gas on the vehicle and not paying anything. He is a free-loader who could be causing the vehicle to lose balance or to run out of fuel for his unplanned extra weight. He could end up dead if the rope breaks or if he ends up freezing outside.

    Unfortunately, in the real world, we are also taught not to judge, but to applaud criminals for being so clever, for using any means to achieve their ends.

    These WHAT-IF scenarios are appeals to emotion -- to feel sorry for such criminals.

    In other words, God considers those who but know Him imperfectly, through no fault of their own, but who desire to do all they understand to be their obligations, and would certainly have offered to pay for gas had they had the chance to do so, "hijackers?"

    By this line of thinking, you degrade God to the level of a Pharisee, who rewards and punishes on technicalities (hope you haven't made any mistakes in confession, and that the priest who you think baptized did so with proper form, matter, intent, and Orders).

    Implicitly, you are forwarding some kind of theory of predestination ("If God wanted them in Heaven, he would have sent a priest to baptize them").
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #145 on: August 21, 2018, 09:47:06 PM »
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  • Let’s move on.  A Justified person goes to heaven.  Ok?  It’s such a minor point that it doesn’t matter.

    What matters is - who qualifies to be justified?  You argue that all manner of non-Catholics do, which is at odds with Trent.  

    OK, if you are conceding that point, I will play along a bit further, and delve into your question:

    Who are the justified?

    Answer: All those in the state of sanctifying grace.

    Proof: There are none in hell in the state of sanctifying grace.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #146 on: August 21, 2018, 09:50:25 PM »
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  • There are three baptisms: Water, blood, and desire.

    It is this latter which will satisfy your criteria.

    St. Thomas Aquinas speculated about three baptisms. The Council of Trent taught one baptism.

    Catholics believe what the authorized infallible Magisterium proposes, and do not use fallible speculations of theologians to attack the decreed and defined Faith of the Church.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #147 on: August 21, 2018, 09:52:27 PM »
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  • St. Thomas Aquinas speculated about three baptisms. The Council of Trent taught one baptism.

    Catholics believe what the authorized infallible Magisterium proposes, and do not use fallible speculations of theologians to attack the decreed and defined Faith of the Church.

    ...or desire for it.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #148 on: August 21, 2018, 09:52:45 PM »
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  • Pax-

    That bizarre answer necessarily implies the damnation of the justified.

    Can you cite a single approved pope, council, saint, or theologian to back your made-up theology?

    That's a two edge sword. The same demand can be made of your hypothetical. Your example of a Eastern schismatic child is specious. "Suddenly he dies". If a person follows the commandments, God will preserve him, and send him a preacher.

    https://dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdeVer14.htm#11

    Quote
    1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecuмenism/salvation.htm

    Quote
    No doubt, it is (absolutely speaking) POSSIBLE for God to save men by any means He pleases; and He could have saved all mankind through the merits of any one thing that Jesus Christ did or suffered, without requiring such a severe sacrifice from Him as His death upon the Cross. But whatever God CAN do in this respect, is nothing to our purpose; the great question for us is to know what He HAS done. Now, we have seen above, from the whole tenor of revelation, that God has appointed true Faith in Jesus Christ, and the being a member of His Church, as conditions of salvation. That He has appointed them as essential conditions, so that none WILL or CAN be saved without them. That the Word of God points out no other possible way by which man can be saved; nay, that whatever extraordinary ways He may sometimes take to bring people to His Church, yet according to the manner He has spoken of many of the above texts on this subject, it is impossible He should, in fact, have reserved any EXTRAORDINARY means of salvation for those who live and die not joined in communion with the Church of Christ by True Faith, otherwise He would contradict Himself, and give the lie to His own Words, which is absolutely impossible. For instance, these two express declaration of scripture: "The Lord daily added to the Church such as should be saved," and "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed," would not be true, if there was any possibility for those to be saved who were not added to the Church, or did not believe. The same is equally true in most of the other texts, as will appear on considering them.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #149 on: August 21, 2018, 09:52:57 PM »
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  • In other words, God considers those who but know Him imperfectly, through no fault of their own, but who desire to do all they understand to be their obligations, and would certainly have offered to pay for gas had they had the chance to do so, "hijackers?"
    Why did they not ask to come inside where the warmth of the Holy Spirit awaits them?

    Christ commands everyone to come inside to the Sacred Banquet where they will enjoy His communion, all He asks is that they put on the white robe of baptism and be of one heart, one mind, one Spirit. Those who refuse to put on the white robe are cast into the eternal fires.

    We do have a choice.
    Lord have mercy.