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Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"  (Read 26763 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #120 on: August 21, 2018, 05:31:34 PM »
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  • Then thank goodness we have you to clear up all these Popes, saints, and theologians misunderstandings of Trent and Vatican I (which all say the opposite of you)!

    If I find popes, saints, or theologians, or whomever, contradicting the Council of Trent or the Vatican Council (or any other ecuмenical council), I use the rule of faith given by these councils to measure them. That's what ecuмenical councils are for. That's why we have a solemn extraordinary Magisterium. To give us the means to be able to detect errors or even wolves.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #121 on: August 21, 2018, 05:34:34 PM »
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  • You mean like how you will not be able to find a single pope, council, saint, or approved theologian arguing that the souls of those who die justified could nevertheless be damned?
    There goes another deflection by the OP. The subject of this thread is his belief that people in any and all religions can be saved without any real desire to be baptized or to be a Catholic, and without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

    There is not one single saint that taught what he believes, that people in any and all religions can be saved without any real desire to be baptized or to be a Catholic, and without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity. His teaching gets it's authority from Vatican II.




    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #122 on: August 21, 2018, 05:38:41 PM »
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  • I repeat to all the defenders of the sacrament of baptism,  EENS, and the Athanasian Creed:


    Quote
    Frankly, I will never understand why the defenders of the sacrament of baptism and EENS waste their time talking to these people about baptism of desire of the catechumen, when 99% of these people believe that anyone can be saved  in any and all religions without any real desire to be baptized or to be a Catholic, and without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #123 on: August 21, 2018, 06:25:43 PM »
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    As regards Christian times, please explain how one can be in the state of sanctifying grace, but not justified (e.g., One with perfect contrition for his sins, but not baptized), and then explain how such a one can be damned.
    One cannot be in the state of sanctifying grace yet unjustified.  Means the same thing.

    Being baptized makes one a member of the Church (i.e. which is what the indelible mark signifies).  If one is justified but not a member of the Church, then how can they enter heaven?  An unbaptized but justified person would not be "damned", they would go to the Limbo of the just, just like unbaptized infants.  Limbo is a place of natural happiness, not a punishment.  However, if you want to split hairs, and consider Limbo to be part of hell, (since it's not heaven) then ok, by that definition they would be in hell, but not damned.

    It's important to remember that all of this discussion was explained by Trent under the heading of "justification".  Trent never equated BOD and justification with salvation.  An unbaptized but justified person still has one final, but important step to take.  At the end of the day, this is all theoretical anyways.  Maybe it's never happened?  No docuмented cases exist.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #124 on: August 21, 2018, 06:31:51 PM »
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    The subject of this thread is his belief that people in any and all religions can be saved without any real desire to be baptized or to be a Catholic, and without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.
    Yes, Sean, you are off topic.  Trent clearly says in Chapter 6 on Justification that ONLY those who believe in 1) Original Sin, 2) the Incarnation/Trinity, 3) the Redemption by Christ, 4) accept the truths of the faith, 5) have a conversion of heart and reject sin, with the intention to follow the 10 commandments, 6) resolve to get baptized and enter the Church....all of this is REQUIRED for one to receive BOD.

    Anything less and one is not able to receive BOD.  Your and +ABL's view of BOD is heretical, per Trent.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #125 on: August 21, 2018, 06:40:34 PM »
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  • One cannot be in the state of sanctifying grace yet unjustified.  Means the same thing.

    Being baptized makes one a member of the Church (i.e. which is what the indelible mark signifies).  If one is justified but not a member of the Church, then how can they enter heaven?  An unbaptized but justified person would not be "damned", they would go to the Limbo of the just, just like unbaptized infants.  Limbo is a place of natural happiness, not a punishment.  However, if you want to split hairs, and consider Limbo to be part of hell, (since it's not heaven) then ok, by that definition they would be in hell, but not damned.

    It's important to remember that all of this discussion was explained by Trent under the heading of "justification".  Trent never equated BOD and justification with salvation.  An unbaptized but justified person still has one final, but important step to take.  At the end of the day, this is all theoretical anyways.  Maybe it's never happened?  No docuмented cases exist.

    Because by sanctifying grace he is joined to the Church, without being a member of it.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #126 on: August 21, 2018, 06:42:14 PM »
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  • One who is in sanctifying grace is not necessarily a member of the Church, as Trent explains.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #127 on: August 21, 2018, 06:42:55 PM »
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  • Yes, Sean, you are off topic.  Trent clearly says in Chapter 6 on Justification that ONLY those who believe in 1) Original Sin, 2) the Incarnation/Trinity, 3) the Redemption by Christ, 4) accept the truths of the faith, 5) have a conversion of heart and reject sin, with the intention to follow the 10 commandments, 6) resolve to get baptized and enter the Church....all of this is REQUIRED for one to receive BOD.

    Anything less and one is not able to receive BOD.  Your and +ABL's view of BOD is heretical, per Trent.

    Another dodge.

    For the 5th time:

    Please cite any pope, council, theologian, or saint who taught the possibility of a soul dying in the state of grace being damned.

    If you do not do so this time, I will consider you to have conceded that all the just are saved, and progress from there.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #128 on: August 21, 2018, 06:44:44 PM »
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  • Already answered:

    An unbaptized but justified person would not be "damned", they would go to the Limbo of the just, just like unbaptized infants.  Limbo is a place of natural happiness, not a punishment.  However, if you want to split hairs, and consider Limbo to be part of hell, (since it's not heaven) then ok, by that definition they would be in hell, but not damned.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #129 on: August 21, 2018, 06:45:41 PM »
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  • One who is in sanctifying grace is not necessarily a member of the Church, as Trent explains.  

    See previous post.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #130 on: August 21, 2018, 06:58:52 PM »
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  • An unbaptized but justified person

    I have never heard of an "unbaptized but justified person" other than by folks who say that this idea is an idea of Fr. Leonard Feeney. Now, a single Jesuit priest is not exactly a source of the Catholic Faith.

    How can an unbaptized person be justified, while the Council of Trent teaches that the instrumental cause of Justification is the sacrament of baptism?


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #131 on: August 21, 2018, 07:14:08 PM »
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  • Limbo is a place of natural happiness, not a punishment.  However, if you want to split hairs, and consider Limbo to be part of hell, (since it's not heaven) then ok, by that definition they would be in hell, but not damned.

    Apropos "punishment" and "not damned". To insist on terminology of the Church: Pope Pius VI calls those in Limbo  "punished with the punishment of the condemned" though "exclusive of the punishment of fire".

    Quote from: Denzinger
    1526 26. The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,--false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.
    Source

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #132 on: August 21, 2018, 07:33:57 PM »
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  • @Mithrandylan

    Quote from: Denzinger
    1522 22. The proposition which declares that faith, "from which begins the series of graces, and through which, as the first voice, we are called to salvation and to the Church": is the very excellent virtue itself of faith by which men are called and are the faithful; just as if that grace were not prior, which "as it precedes the will, so it precedes faith also" (from St. August.,De dono persev., c.16, n. 41),---suspected of heresy, and savoring of it, elsewhere condemned in Quesnel [see n. 1377], erroneous.

    source


    This shows that the faith through which we are called to salvation and to the Church is not the very excellent virtue itself of faith by which men are called the faithful and are the faithful.

    This is another answer of the Magisterium of the Church to your question whether "receiving faith by hearing" or "conceiving faith by hearing" is the "supernatural faith" (as you call it). The answer here again is: negative!

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #133 on: August 21, 2018, 08:24:11 PM »
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  • As Last Tradhican points out, it is a waste of time to debate the eternal place of a justified but unbaptized person (ie a formal catechumen).  My opinion is, they would go to limbo.  Is it possible they would go to heaven?  Some theologians think so.  It is open for debate.  Whatever you think, it’s not heresy because the Church has not ruled on this precise question. 

    —-
    The problematic question which started this thread is the question of an unbaptized Muslim or the “invincibly ignorant”.  Trent teaches, unequivocally, that there are requirements for one to be justified before baptism and neither of the above 2 classes of people qualify, as Sean and +ABL contend.  

    As I pointed out earlier, a Muslim who would be properly disposed for BOD, would necessarily not be a Muslim anymore, since he would’ve had to renounce his religion and take formal classes, believing in the incarnation, original sin, etc.  Therefore, it is ABSOLUTELY AGAINST TRENT to say that ANYONE can be saved either “in their false religions” or “in spite of them”, as +ABL wrongly asserted.  Anyone who would receive BOD would be a catholic “in process”.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #134 on: August 21, 2018, 08:43:33 PM »
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  • As Last Tradhican points out, it is a waste of time to debate the eternal place of a justified but unbaptized person (ie a formal catechumen).  My opinion is, they would go to limbo.  Is it possible they would go to heaven?  Some theologians think so.  It is open for debate.  Whatever you think, it’s not heresy because the Church has not ruled on this precise question.

    —-
    The problematic question which started this thread is the question of an unbaptized Muslim or the “invincibly ignorant”.  Trent teaches, unequivocally, that there are requirements for one to be justified before baptism and neither of the above 2 classes of people qualify, as Sean and +ABL contend.  

    As I pointed out earlier, a Muslim who would be properly disposed for BOD, would necessarily not be a Muslim anymore, since he would’ve had to renounce his religion and take formal classes, believing in the incarnation, original sin, etc.  Therefore, it is ABSOLUTELY AGAINST TRENT to say that ANYONE can be saved either “in their false religions” or “in spite of them”, as +ABL wrongly asserted.  Anyone who would receive BOD would be a catholic “in process”.

    Pax-

    Let's say there is a 7 yr-old Russian Orthodox boy.

    He has attained the age of reason.

    He has never heard the claims of the Catholic Church regarding EENS, but he does believe that he must avoid and confess sins, receive Holy Communion, attend Mass, etc.

    In short, he desires to do whatever God would require of him (even though he does not know what all of those things are).

    There being no obex gratiae (i.e., obstacle) to preclude the transfer of sanctifying grace, he is most certainly in that state (ie., justified).

    Suddenly he dies.

    Do you deny that such a one is joined to the Catholic Church (while not being a member of it), through said grace, even though he never explicitly desired it?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."