Pax, rather than a definition from Fr. Hardon on actual grace, I was hoping someone could provide a definition of supernatural faith from a solemn council.

Some solemn teaching instance that makes it really clear that supernatural faith is not a grace whereby we believe in Divine Revelation. 

Remission of sins, and also Hope and Charity must be infused as well for justification to occur. It is not "faith" alone or simply believing in the intellect what God has revealed. "Whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity".

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I don't follow, are you admitting that Trent is describing supernatural faith when it says the catechumen receives a grace from God which enables him to believe in Divine Revelation?  Or are you changing the subject? (I don't ask that question in a mean tone, I am just trying to figure out what this has to do with what we're talking about, viz. "when" a person can have supernatural faith).

Why the catechumen would ask of the Church this Faith, if he already possessed it?

If he already possessed it as a catechumen, well... then there was no need for the catechumen to beg for it before the sacrament of Baptism.

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That would be a valid objection if grace and virtues were static.  But such was the position of the Protestants, and Trent itself rebuts it (Denz. 803), teaching instead that we grow in them.  So it is neither redundant nor superfluous for baptism to infuse them.

Vatican I, chapter 3 talks about Faith.

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Nice.  What does it say?

Too long to post it all.  I'm still not sure I understand your question so I couldn't cite to answer it.

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Well, it's nice to see you slowing down and curtailing your haste :)
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The question is at the top of the page.  Is there a definition of supernatural faith available to us from any solemn teaching instance?  If so, what is it?
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ETA: and since all the context is on previous pages, here's a very brief summary to bring us up to snuff.  Struthio, Ladislaus, and it seems like Cantarella have all argued that supernatural faith is only first received at baptism.  My argument is that it can be received before, and I based this on Trent (Denz. 798 ) which describes how a catechumen may be moved by divine grace to believe in divine revelation.  
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Ladislaus (and it seems like Cantarella, too) argued that this was merely describing actual grace.  At which point the question "what is supernatural faith?" becomes quite apropos.  I would think no better definition exists of it than a grace whereby we are moved to believe in Divine Revelation.  Lad and Cantarella seem to imply that there is a better definition out there, something I'm assuming they would only say if they actually had such a definition in mind.  So, that's what we're looking for.  It's very generous of you to volunteer to do the heavy lifting for them.

Forgive me, but you appear to just be begging the question, and aside from that, jumping quite a bit ahead.  All I've been talking about for three pages is faith.  That's it, nothing else.  My sole purpose at this point is over the question of whether or not supernatural faith can be had prior to baptism.  If you agree with me that catechumens may have faith (per Denz. 798 ) then we can debate other points elsewhere.  If you disagree, then let's keep on with that thread and get a definition of supernatural faith produced.  As I said earlier, I have no interest in proceeding to later points if we're resting on a faulty premise of when faith (which is necessary for justification) can begin.

ETA: just to prevent any confusion with this or any other post, when I say "faith" in these contexts I always mean supernatural faith unless noted otherwise.  Not natural faith, not an act of faith, not a mere "awareness" of what God has revealed, but the virtue of supernatural faith, "without which it is impossible to please God."

Even those who think that the "vow" "desire thereof" could potentially be a substitute for the tangible clear water on head in a dying catechumen ("Baptism of Desire") must admit this because Baptism is necessary for salvation.

This is correct, and the vast majority of BoDers fall into heresy on this point.  Elsewhere, Trent explicitly taught that, in the case of Confession, perfect contrition without the Sacrament of Confession did not suffice to restore the soul to a state of justification, that the Sacrament is necessary as the instrumental cause.  Same thing must be said for Baptism, but many BoDers deny this and claim, quite heretically, that justification and salvation can happen without the Sacrament of Baptism.  In fact, Miths' original formulation (of "through", which I correct to "before") was heretical.

My sole purpose at this point is over the question of whether or not supernatural faith can be had prior to baptism.  If you agree with me that catechumens may have faith (per Denz. 798 ) then we can debate other points elsewhere.  If you disagree, then let's keep on with that thread and get a definition of supernatural faith produced.  As I said earlier, I have no interest in proceeding to later points if we're resting on a faulty premise of when faith (which is necessary for justification) can begin.

ETA: just to prevent any confusion with this or any other post, when I say "faith" in these contexts I always mean supernatural faith unless noted otherwise.  Not natural faith, not an act of faith, not a mere "awareness" of what God has revealed, but the virtue of supernatural faith, "without which it is impossible to please God."

Study the Rite of Baptism (pre-Vatican II) - provided below.  
See: http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2013/07/18/latin-baptism-vs-new-rite-of-baptism/

Father Carita who died in 2012 stated, "This ancient catholic saying “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi” means “As we pray so we believe”.   I think that the second part “Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi” which means “As we believe so we live” was added on later."  See: http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2013/07/14/lex-orandi-lex-credendi-lex-vivendi-lex-provendi/


Immediately before baptism, the catechumen is asked if he believes. His response is "Credo."  It takes faith to believe. Thus, in order for an adult catechumen to be baptized, he needs to express his faith.

In the Early Church, the catechumen had to be living a life of faith before Baptism. His sponsors had to testify that he was already living a blameless life. That takes faith. With Baptism, the catechumen will be granted the fullness of faith.

Remember in the Holy Gospels, Christ asks various people who came to Him to be healed,  "Do you believe?"
He receives different responses. One stands out, "Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief." Even though we have faith, even though we have been baptized, we can and should say this prayer everyday, so that we may persevere in the Holy Faith.


Posted on July 18, 2013 by Father Carota
Latin Baptism  ...



Here is the Latin Tridentine Baptism Rite. . . .

The Rite of Baptism  Part I  Outside the Church
The priest (wearing a violet stole), sponsors, and the catechumen stand in the narthex of the church, symbolizing that at this point, the candidate is not a member of the Church.
The Questioning
Priest: N., what do you ask of the Church of God?	Priest: N., quid petis ab Ecclesia Dei?
Sponsor/Catechumen: Faith.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Fidem.
Priest: What does Faith offer you?	Priest: Fides, quid tibi præstat?
Sponsor/Catechumen: Life everlasting.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Vitam æternam.
Priest: If then you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments. ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.’	Priest: Si igitur vis ad vitam ingredi, serva mandata. Diligis Dominum Deum tuum ex toto corde tuo, et ex tota anima tua, et ex tota mente tua, et proximum tuum sicut teipsum.
The Exsufflation
The priest then breathes 3 times on the candidate in the form of a Cross, recalling the Spirit (breath, wind, “ruach”) of God.
Priest: Go forth from him (her), unclean spirit, and give place to the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.	Priest: Exi ab eo (ea), immunde spiritus, et da locuм Spiritui Sancto Paraclito.
The Sign of the Cross
The priest now makes the Sign of the Cross with his thumb on the candidate’s forehead and breast.
Priest: Receive the Sign of the Cross both upon your forehead + and also upon your heart +; take to you the faith of the heavenly precepts; and so order your life as to be, from henceforth, the temple of God.	Priest: Accipe signum Crucis tam in fronte, quam in corde, sume fidem cælestium præceptorum: et talis esto moribus, ut templum Dei iam esse possis.
Priest: Let us pray: Mercifully hear our prayers, we beseech Thee, O Lord; and by Thy perpetual assistance keep this Thine elect, N, signed with the sign of the Lord’s cross, so that, preserving this first experience of the greatness of Thy glory, he (she) may deserve, by keeping Thy commandments, to attain to the glory of regeneration. Through Christ our Lord.	Priest: Oremus: Preces nostras, quaesumus, Domine, clementer exaudi; et hunc electum tuum (hanc electam tuam), N. crucis Dominicae impressione signatum (-am), perpetua virtute custodi; ut magnitudinis gloriae tuae rudimenta servans, per custodiam mandatorum, ad regenerationis gloriam pervenire mereatur (-antur). Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.
The Imposition of Hands
The priest places his hands on the candidate’s head.
Priest: Let us pray: Almighty, everlasting God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, look graciously down upon this Thy servant, N., whom Thou hast graciously called unto the beginnings of the faith; drive out from him (her) all blindness of heart; break all the toils of Satan wherewith he (she) was held: open unto him (her), O Lord, the gate of Thy loving kindness, that, being impressed with the sign of Thy wisdom, he (she) may be free from the foulness of all wicked desires, and in the sweet odor of Thy precepts may joyfully serve Thee in Thy Church, and grow in grace from day to day. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.	Priest: Oremus: Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, Pater Domini nostri Iesu Christi, respice dignare super hunc famulum tuum (hanc famulam tuam), N, quem (quam) ad rudimenta fidei vocare dignatus es: omnem caecitatem cordi ab eo (ea) expelle: disrumpe omnes laqueos Satanae, quibus fuerat (-ant) colligatus (-a); aperi ei, Domine ianuam pietatis tuae imbutus (-a), omnium cupiditatum foetoribus careat (-ant), et ad suavem odorem praeceptorum tuorum laetus tibi in Ecclesia tua deserviat, et proficiat de die in diem Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.
Priest: Through the same Christ our Lord.	Priest: Per eundum Christum Dominum nostrum.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen	Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen
The Imposition of Salt
Now the priest puts a little blessed salt in the candidate’s mouth. Salt is the symbol of that wisdom which gives a relish for the sweetness of divine nourishment; preserves, by the teaching of the Gospel, from the corruption of sin, and prevents evil passions from growing in men’s souls. Adult catechumens might be signed on the brow, ears, eyes, nostrils, mouth, breast, and between the shoulders before the imposition of salt. If this procedure is followed, afterwards the candidate will kneel, recite the Our Father several times, and a Cross is made on his forehead, first by the sponsor and then by the priest.
Priest: N., Receive the salt of wisdom; let it be to thee a token of mercy unto everlasting life. May it make your way easy to eternal life.	Priest: N., accipe sal sapientiæ: propitiatio sit tibi in vitam æternam.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.
Priest: Peace be with you.	Priest: Pax tecuм.
Sponsor/Catechumen: And with your spirit.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Et cuм spiritu tuo.
Priest: Let us pray: O God of our fathers, O God the Author of all truth, vouchsafe, we humbly beseech Thee, to look graciously down upon this Thy servant, N., and as he (she) tastes this first nutriment of salt, suffer him (her) no longer to hunger for want of heavenly food, to the end that he (she) may be always fervent in spirit, rejoicing in hope, always serving Thy name. Lead him (her), O Lord, we beseech Thee, to the laver of the new regeneration, that, together with Thy faithful, he may deserve to attain the everlasting rewards of Thy promises. Through Christ our Lord.	Priest: Oremus: Deus patrum nostrorum, Deus universae conditor veritatis, te supplices exoramus, ut hunc famulum tuum (hanc famulam tuam) respicere digneris propitius, et hoc primum pabulum salis gustantem, non diutius esurire permittas, quo minus cibo expleatur caelesti, quatenus sit semper spiritu fervens, spe gaudens, tuo semper nomini serviens. Perduc eum (eam), Domine, quaesumus ad novae regenerationis lavacrum, ut cuм fidelibus tuis promissionum tuarum aeterna praemia consequi mereatur. Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
Priest: Through the same Christ our Lord.	Priest: Per eundum Christum Dominum nostrum.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen	Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen
Part II:  Admission into the Church Building
The Exorcism
The priest makes the Sign of the Cross over the  candidate three times and says:
Priest: I exorcise thee, unclean spirit, in the name of the Father + and of the Son, + and of the Holy + Spirit, that thou goest out and depart from this servant of God, N. For He commands Thee, accursed one, Who walked upon the sea, and stretched out His right hand to Peter about to sink. Therefore, accursed devil, acknowledge thy sentence, and give honor to the living and true God: give honor to Jesus Christ His Son, and to the Holy Spirit; and depart from this servant of God, N. because God and our Lord Jesus Christ hath vouchsafed to call him (her) to His holy grace and benediction and to the font of Baptism.	Priest: Exorcizo te, immunde spiritus, in nomine Patris + et Filii + et Spiritus + Sancti, ut exeas, et recedas ab hoc famulo (hac famula) Dei N.: ipse enim tibi imperat, maledicte damnate, qui pedibus super mare ambulavit, et Petro mergenti dexteram porrexit. Ergo, maledicte diabole, recognosce sententiam tuam, et da honorem Deo vivo et vero, da honorem Iesu Christo Filio eius, et Spiritui Sancto, et recede ab hoc famulo (hac famula) Dei N, quia istum (-am) sibi Deus et Dominus noster Iesus Christus ad suam sanctam gratiam, et benedictionem, fontemque Baptismatis vocare dignatus est.
The Sign of the Cross
The priest again makes the Sign of the Cross on the candidate’s forehead
Priest: And this sign of the holy Cross, which we make upon his (her) forehead, do thou, accursed devil, never dare to violate.	Priest: Et hoc signum sanctae Crucis, + quod nos fronti eius damus, tu, maledicte diabole, numquam audeas violare.
Priest: Through the same Christ our Lord.	Priest: Per eundum Christum Dominum nostrum.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen	Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen
The Imposition of Hands
For the final time, the priest lays his hand on the candidate’s head
Priest: Let us pray: O Holy Lord, Father Almighty, Eternal God, Author of light and truth, I implore Thine everlasting and most just goodness upon this Thy servant N., that Thou wouldst vouchsafe to enlighten him (her) with the light of Thy wisdom: cleanse him (her) and sanctify him (her), give unto him (her) true knowledge; that, being made worthy of the grace of Thy Baptism, he (she) may hold firm hope, right counsel and holy doctrine.	Priest: Oremus: Aeternam, ac iustissimam pietatem tuam deprecor, Domine, sancte Pater omnipotens, aeterne Deus, auctor luminis et veritatis, super hunc famulum tuum (hanc famulam tuam) N, ut digneris eum (eam) illuminare lumine intelligentiae tuae: munda eum (eam), et sanctifica: da ei scientiam veram, ut, dignus (-a) gratia Baptismi tui effectus (-a), teneat (-ant) firmam spem, consilium rectum, doctrinam sanctam.
Priest:Through Christ our Lord.	Priest: Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.
Admission into the Church Building
The priest lays the end of his stole on the candidate as a symbol of his priestly authority, and admits him into the church building, which is the symbol of the Church of Christ. If the catechumen is an adult and was annointed in Part I above, he may be asked to lie prostrate before the Altar in adoration of Christ before this next step.
Priest: N., enter thou into the temple of God, that thou mayest have part with Christ unto life everlasting.	Priest: N., ingredere in templum Dei, ut habeas (-ant) partem cuм Christo in vitam aeternam.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.
The Credo and Pater
Sponsor/Catechumen: I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. He descended into Hell. On the third day, He rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence shall He come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Credo in Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem cæli et terræ. Et in Iesum Christum, Filium eius unicuм, Dominum nostrum: qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine, passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus: descendit ad inferos; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis; ascendit ad cælos; sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis; inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos. Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, Sanctorum communionem, remissionem peccatorum, carnis resurrectionem, vitam æternam. Amen.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation: but deliver us from evil. Amen.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Pater noster, qui es in cælis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in cælo, et in terra. Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie. Et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem: sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
Part III  In the Nave of the Church
The Solemn Exorcism
Priest: I exorcise thee, every unclean spirit, in the name of God the Father + Almighty, in the name of Jesus + Christ, His Son, our Lord and Judge, and in the power of the Holy + Spirit, that thou be depart from this creature of God N, which our Lord hath deigned to call unto His holy temple, that it may be made the temple of the living God, and that the Holy Spirit may dwell therein. Through the same Christ our Lord, who shall come to judge the living and the dead, and the world by fire	Priest: Exorcizo te, omnis spiritus immunde, in nomine Dei + Patris omnipotentis, et in nomine Iesu + Christi Filii eius, Domini et Iudicis nostri, et in virtute Spiritus + Sancti, ut discedas ab hoc plasmate Dei N, quod Dominus noster ad templum sanctum suum vocare dignatus est, ut fiat templum Dei vivi, et Spiritus Sanctus habitet in eo. Per eundum Christum Dominum nostrum, qui venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos, et saeculum per ignem.
The Ephpheta
The priest takes a little spittle and touches the ears and nostrils of the candidate with it. For health reasons, the use of spittle may be omitted. This rite comes from Mark 7:33-35, when Jesus healed the deaf-mute: “And taking him from the multitude apart, he put his fingers into his ears: and spitting, he touched his tongue. And looking up to heaven, he groaned and said to him: Ephpheta, which is, Be thou opened. And immediately his ears were opened and the string of his tongue was loosed and he spoke right.”.
Priest: Ephpheta, that is to say, Be opened, for an odour of sweetness. Be thou, devil, begone; for the judgement of God shall draw near.	Priest: Ephpheta, quod est, Adaperire. In odorem suavitatis. Tu autem effugare, diabole; appropinquabit enim iudicium Dei.
The Renunciation of Satan
Priest: N., do you renounce Satan?	Priest: N., abrenuntias Satanæ?
Sponsor/Catechumen: I do renounce him.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Abrenuntio.
Priest: And all of his works?	Priest: Et omnibus operibus eius?
Sponsor/Catechumen: I do renounce him.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Abrenuntio.
Priest: And all his pomps?	Priest: Et omnibus pompis eius?
Sponsor/Catechumen: I do renounce him.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Abrenuntio.
The Annointing
The priest annoints the candidate with the oil of catechumens on the heart and between the shoulders in the form of a Cross, saying:
Priest: I annoint you + with the oil of salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord, that you may have everlasting life.	Priest: Ego te linio Oleo salutis in Christo Iesu Domino nostro, ut habeas vitam æternam.
Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Amen.
Part IV  At the Font
The priest removes his violet stole and puts on a white one.
The Profession of Faith
Priest: N., do you believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth?	Priest: N., credis in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, creatorem cæli et terram ?
Sponsor/Catechumen: I do believe.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Credo.
Priest: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord, Who was born and Who suffered?	Priest: Credis in Iesum Christum, Filium eius unicuм, Dominum nostrum, natum, et passum?
Sponsor/Catechumen: I do believe.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Credo.
Priest: Do you believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting?	Priest: Credis et in Spiritum sanctum, sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, Sanctorum communionem, remissionem peccatorum, carnis resurrectionem, et vitam æternam?
Sponsor/Catechumen: I do believe.	Sponsor/Catechumen: Credo.
Baptism (Matter and Form of the Sacrament)

Ladislaus-

Please cite any approved theologian, pope, saint, or council proclaiming those who die justified have any other possibility than salvation?

Again, you're missing the point, since logic is not SeanJohnson's strength.  I'm saying that it's not possible that God would allow anyone who perseveres in justification to die without the Sacrament.  But I personally don't believe that justification is possible before Baptism (where I'm not in complete agreement with Father Feeney.)

If any died in a state of justification without/before Baptism, then it would have been St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist.  But they did not enter into the beatific vision due to some ontological defect that prevented this.  So here's a situation where justification doesn't not inherently mean salvation and beatific vision.