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Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"  (Read 36961 times)

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Offline Struthio

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2018, 10:37:56 PM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on August 20, 2018, 10:23:36 PM
Well let's take one thing at a time. I'm happy to debate the point directly from Trent, so long as I'm also on record noting that the real problem here is a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholic learning viz. disregard for the ordinary magisterium.

When describing the justification of the sinner before baptism, Trent teaches (contra the Protestants) the initiatory role that faith plays in that process. It says faith comes from hearing, not baptism. Denz 798

"Now they are disposed to that justice [can. 7 and 9] when, aroused and assisted by divine grace, receiving faith "by hearing" [Rom. 10:17], they are freely moved toward God, believing that to be true which has been divinely revealed and promised..."
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It says the virtues are infused at baptism too, of course, which only makes sense given the (again, contra Protestants) *continued* justification of souls.

Yes, Trent teaches that you have to first hear and learn the content of the faith. That alone won't happen without the grace of God (which is not yet sanctifying grace). Then you have to assent. Then you beg for baptism. When receiving the sacrament, the faith is infused (as well as hope and charity), sanctifying grace is then infused without which you are not justified.

(This irrelevant short description cannot replace the relevant teaching of the Council of Trent in cuŠ¼ hoc tempore, the decree on justification linked in my first post on page #1 of this thread. The length of the decree is a few screen pages. Anyone should read and study it from the first to the last line. Then there are some helpful Canons.)
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2018, 10:47:05 PM »
But that isn't what it says, Struthio. It says they receive faith by hearing. It describes that faith as a *grace* whereby man believes all that God has revealed. It then describes the acquisition of the other two virtues (hope and charity). All before baptism.
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Offline Struthio

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2018, 10:50:33 PM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on August 20, 2018, 10:47:05 PM
But that isn't what it says, Struthio. It says they receive faith by hearing. It describes that faith as a *grace* whereby man believes all that God has revealed. It then describes the acquisition of the other two virtues (hope and charity).

It says that "they are disposed to that justice". You need to be disposed to receive justification by the sacrament of baptism. Hearing does not transmit the faith, hearing disposes to be prepared to receive the faith.
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Offline Neil Obstat

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2018, 12:26:36 AM »
Quote from: Struthio on August 20, 2018, 10:50:33 PM
It says that "they are disposed to that justice". You need to be disposed to receive justification by the sacrament of baptism. Hearing does not transmit the faith, hearing disposes to be prepared to receive the faith.
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It seems to me that there are some who, to defend BoD as being "de fide" or even "ex cathedra" (seriously!), are coming from a place of ignorance regarding the nature of grace. They confuse actual grace with sanctifying grace, and I have met a few who claim there is no distinction, that all graces are the same; such that pagans ignorantly worshiping at a pagan shrine are thereby recipients of the same sanctifying grace (and therefore justification and salvation without need for Baptism) that the Apostles received on Pentecost Sunday.
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You can't make this stuff up!
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When did the Apostles teach that receiving the Holy Ghost on Pentecost made them all exempt from having to be baptized? 
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2018, 05:49:05 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on August 20, 2018, 10:23:36 PM
Well let's take one thing at a time. I'm happy to debate the point directly from Trent, so long as I'm also on record noting that the real problem here is a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholic learning viz. disregard for the ordinary magisterium.
Before anything, what exactly are you saying is  part of the ordinary magisterium, what precisely are you talking about and defending,  explicit baptism of desire of the catechumen or salvation by implicit faith (salvation by belief  in a God that rewards)?

Let's be precise before we discuss anything having to do with this "greased pig" (for BOD can mean anything from explicit baptism of desire of the catechumen to salvation in any religion or no religion) or we'll never get ahold of it (this thread will go forever).
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